**PLEASE NOTE** Our comments on the other petition's posts and any from their supporters posts are correct at the time of writing - their information may or may not be changed which could impact on the relevance and accuracy of what we post but this is outwith our control - we do not have the capacity to keep checking their posts for changes
Hi all
Thankyou to everyone supporting us and the people we are fighting for!
It's only 4 days until councillors will discuss rules in cemeteries including dog rules, the council themselves state:
"Whilst there are some issues, there is an insufficient evidence base to conclude that it would be proportionate to further tighten the rules. Further, to enforce a ‘no dog’ rule would require a significant increase in officer resources."
Remember you can have your say. Please see the end of this post for other ways to get involved.
You can email us at: cemeteries4all@yahoo.com
This week we have been focusing on the evidence shared by the council (who run cemeteries), wondering what councillors (who decide cemetery rules) will decide based on this evidence, sharing a very clear statement from a councillor re this and clarifying the issue is indeed on the agenda - it did not initially appear to be but it is.
At the moment we do not have any other information to share on this, we've been working on our deputation so have limited capacity for research and councillors are off at the weekend.
Instead, we thought we'd share some interesting if slightly weird information from one of our 43 council cemeteries; first some context and background.
In some ways this is an update to our controversial post from 9th July:
Clarification - dog urination rules & exemptions/full ban explanation (again) https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/documents/g7281/Public%20reports%20pack%2008th-Aug-2024%2010.00%20Culture%20and%20Communities%20Committee.pdf?T=10&$LO$=1
In this post we stated:
"Whilst we agree this is unpleasant (dogs urinating on graves) and we personally believe is disrespectful to the deceased person and their family we also understand how difficult it may be to avoid. Our biggest thought on this area recently has been - is it actually legislated for and against offical current cemetery rules?"
As you'll see from the post dogs urinating is not against rules, it is not illegal and it is not counted under the Dog Fouling (Scotland) Act 2003.
Full Dog Fouling (Scotland) Act: 2003: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2003/12/contents
Not unexpectedly the other petition didn't like this post and wrote an update on it:
To Pee, Or Not To Pee – That Is The Question (The Answer Is…Obviously…NO!) https://www.change.org/p/edinburgh-council-to-reinstate-no-dogs-in-cemeteries-rule-that-was-in-place-pre-covid/u/32740554
As we do we issued an acknowledgement and apology for any upset caused and wrote this to clarify the point of our post:
"Our update intended to say that whilst we and many others may agree it is morally wrong to allow a dog to urinate on a gravestone some people may not share these morals, it is not actually in current cemetery rules nor it is covered by the Dog Fouling (Scotland) 2003 act as it is not dog fouling - the other petition mislabelled a photo of a dog urinating as fouling (they may have changed this now).
We were not attempting to justify dog urination but discuss whether punishment for it is just under current rules and legislation and discuss actually bringing in something that would potentially address the issue in a porportionate fair manner for all inhabitants and visitors to Edinburgh's 43 cemeteries."
Source: https://www.change.org/p/halt-the-petitioned-ban-on-dogs-in-edinburgh-cemeteries/u/32741321
Hopefully that's the context set for today and we've been clear that we do not advocate for dogs peeing on graves and that we acknowledge to many it is morally wrong, if not, we apologise in advance for any unintentional offence and misunderstandings.
We do feel it might be of interest to note today's photo, from the Friend's of Dalry Cemetery x/twitter account which was posted on 26 June 2021 and stated:
"This monument was being cleaned along the bottom by dog pee, so we decided to clean the whole thing! We used a professional product specifically for gravestones (D2 Biological)."
Again we do not advocate for dogs peeing on gravestones but we do think this provides some interesting food for thought - we definitely prefer the cleaner bottom part of the gravestone.
So that fact is, not only is dog urination not against the law or rules it may actually help keep gravestones clean - obviously that doesn't make it moral but the FACT is it is not at the present time accounted for in rules or law and one cemetery friends group most certainly shows it may help.
Should we really ban dogs from cemeteries for urinating on gravestones when we have no rules or law to cover this? Is this just?
Yes some people feel it is wrong but others may not - should we punish people for not sharing the beliefs of others? Some people think lying is wrong others think it is ok to lie and mislead time and time again - in certain circumstances there may be punishment for lying but overall we tend not to punish liars and just note that we don't like their behaviours.
Meanwhile the other petition is still showing photos of dogs urinating incorrectly calling it dog fouling and incorrectly citing these people as breaking rules which they are not at the present time, perhaps it will be worked into rules - who knows.
We advocate for respectful, responsible cemetery use by all and education for the minority not following rules. Below are some of our concerns in relation to a ban on dogs (with or without exemptions).
- Mourners who may be disadvantaged by any form of ban on dogs and not able to grieve as is helpful to them.
- The deceased resting in our cemeteries who may have loved dogs in life and like to see them in death
- There are many socially accepted reasons one might visit a cemetery why should somone miss out on this because they have a well behaved dog on lead causing no issues
- Women and vunerable groups state they feel safer with a dog in a cemetery - should be take away their safety net? Remember they may be a mourner
- People with dogs can and do help in cemeteries
- The footfall of dogs may offer cemetery inhabitants and visitors protection from unwanted or illegal behaviour
- The no dogs rule pre covid was not enforced or adhered to in at least 2 cemeteries (all if you believe some council officials) - what would this rule actually to do improve the behaviours of the minority of rule breakers?
- If a ban was brought in but not enforced by the coincil would this lead to individuals self policing cemeteries possibly incorrectly and inappropriately?
- Is it porportionate and just to remove a rule abiding majority for a minority of rule breakers in a minority of cemeteries
- The list of aspects could go on but we feel that is enough to demonstrate how complicated this matter truely is.
Let's keep cemetries4all responsible, respectful people!
Official current cemetery rules:
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/33467/cemetery-management-rules
Other ways to get involved and share your view:
Write to your local councillor - List of your local Councillors:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0
Write to committe members who will discuss and decide on cemetery rules - List of who is due to be at the committee meeting including committee members:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMeetingAttendance.aspx?ID=7281
Vote on the Scotsman's article where you can place your vote (it is not binding in any way):
https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/why-council-will-vote-on-a-ban-dogs-from-all-edinburgh-cemeteries-4679251?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1jiu0nmOB5KkeddVY_d0oDN6U2gt09cUrdWgBgQNW9Nr0N14p8EnUv3gs_aem_n3NYnWSu9Bpe_wP_x0twLw#disqus-comment-section