Hi all
Thank you all - our new and continuing signers, sharers, surprise donators and social media defenders.
Also many thanks to the people who have emailed to share support or their concerns and stories - we love hearing your views and value your support!
It is less than a month till the meeting where councillors will discuss the rules in relation to dogs in cemeteries - if you don't believe dogs should be banned (with or without excemptions) please:
- Keep sharing this petition - research has shown that people need to see a petition many times before signing
- Write to your local councillor
- Write to members of the comittee on the board that decides these rules.
- Give a written or spoken despotition to the comittee yourself.
- Vote on the Scotsman article
- Contact us to get more involved, share your views or stories on why you support us: cemeteries4all@yahoo.com
Two cemetery involved officials with knowledge, interest and duties in Edinburgh council cemeteries both state there are NO TRIAL RULES in Morningside cemetery.
On the 4th of July we cited many concerns related to what the other petition originally quoted as actual rule then later called them "revised" rules in Morningside cemetery, the next day they called them "trial" rules and today they called them "official Edinburgh Council trial Cemetery Management Rules for dogs".
They have made many posts relating to these "trial rules" including posts with photographs of individuals who they cite as breaking these trial rules.
We did discuss our concerns on a few updates but the main discussion on this matter was on the 4th July and you can see our update here:
https://www.change.org/p/halt-the-petitioned-ban-on-dogs-in-edinburgh-cemeteries/u/32727757
Our concerns were many but essentially boiled down to two points:
- That this trial may be used for evidence in upcoming rule discussions and that it may be used as evidence of people with dogs behaviour. We were concerned about this as for many reasons we felt this trial was invalid and any results from it would be unreliable.
- If there were trial rules in Morningside cemetery they were not clearly communicated and were running alongside current offical rules which could cause confusion as to which rules to follow and people being wrongly identified as breaking rules - with their photo potentially appearing online.
The other petition dismissed our concerns, stating:
"For anyone who has been following the two petitions for six months, never mind anyone actually involved in these petitions, to claim that they were not aware of the new signage and trial period of enforcement is frankly ludicrous..."
We had heard from the other petition's updates and in meetings with council officials of trial signage but not trial rules. We understood the trial signage was to emphasise and educate on current rules.
We wrote to our local councillor and recieved this reply:
"I can confirm that the Cemetery Rules have not changed since 2022 and state that dogs in cemeteries should be kept on a lead and that cemeteries should not be utilised for commercial dog walking."
Unfortunately, the other petition dismissed this answer stating:
"It is even more concerning to hear a "local Councillor" seems unaware of the new signage and trial period. Have they been out of the country since the end of March?"
Our local councillor is actually very invested and involved in the topic of dog rules in cemeteries and is on the board that decides such rules so should be aware and knowledgeable enough to comment on trial and current rules.
However, despite our councillors knowledge they are not an Edinburgh Council offical, they are a politically publicly elected official.
We wondered perhaps if Edinburgh Council and councillors were not communicating on this issue or were perhaps unaware of what each other were doing. We have since received correspondence from a relevent Edinburgh Council service themselves that corroborates and adds to what our local councillor stated.
Edinburgh Council stated this:
"It’s not trial rules it’s trial signs to help people understand the current rules - which are dogs must be on a lead - it was never intended as a trial new rule."
So we have two officials stating there has been no change in cemetery rules and there are no "revised" or "trial" rules or even "official Edinburgh Council trial Cemetery Management Rules for dogs" in Morningside Cemetery.
What we believed and what Edinburgh Council and our local councillor have stated is that in Morningside Cemetery there are trial signs to help people understand current rules with suggestions (not rules) to help people follow current offical rules.
The signs we have seen from the other petition do contain information that is not in current rules so we can understand why there might have been confusion but we have it from two officials these are not trial rules and current offficial rules as agreed in 2022 still stand.
Perhaps there were crossed wires in communication between Andy and Paul and officials, we do not know and cannot comment. As stated, what we do know is what we have been told from two reliable, knowledgable official sources that is there are NO TRIAL RULES IN MORNINGSIDE CEMETERY.
We would hope (and admire) if the other petition was able to acknowledge this information with grace and not state that these officials are ill-informed or accuse us of misinformation or lying as has happened before in their petition updates and online.
We would also hope and admire if the other petition did not silently rewrite posts that contain informatiom relating to "revised rules", "trial rules" or "official Edinburgh Council trial Cemetery Management Rules for dogs" but instead offerred it's supporters and other members of the public an apology for (perhaps unintentionally) appearing to mislead and misinform them.
Our final hope would be that a sincere apology would be given to anyone accused of wrong doing by the other petition under these non existent trial rules and that if their photograph was posted online this would be removed - whilst people's faces were blocked they may have been recognisable in other ways which may have caused them issues.
However, that's just our view it is entirely up to the other petition what they say in regards to this information on trials rules which has come from two officials involved and knowledgeable in this matter.
Current Offical Cemetery Rules: https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/33467/cemetery-management-rules
In relation to our post yesterday on dog urination and rules we apologise if we caused any offence or confusion:
https://www.change.org/p/halt-the-petitioned-ban-on-dogs-in-edinburgh-cemeteries/u/32738807
As we have stated many times we have issues with writting. We especially have issues with brevity and concentrating our thoughts at times. When we posted we honestly thought it was clear what we were saying although we knew it covered a lot of information. We will try to explain here what we were meaning to anyone who was confused - this is for clarity, we are not changing what we said, merely writing it in a way that is clearer to understand.
Our update intended to say that whilst we and many others may agree it is morally wrong to allow a dog to urinate on a gravestone some people may not share these morals, it is not actually in current cemetery rules nor it is covered by the Dog Fouling (Scotland) 2003 act as it is not dog fouling - the other petition mislabelled a photo of a dog urinating as fouling (they may have changed this now).
We were not attempting to justify dog urination but discuss whether punishment for it is just under current rules and legislation and discuss actually bringing in something that would potentially address the issue in a porportionate fair manner for all inhabitants and visitors to Edinburgh's 43 cemeteries.
We were wondering if it is really fair and just to punish people for breaking a rule which doesn't exist and for not agreeing with other's morals. We apologise if the analogy we used relating to this confused people.
As stated we do agree such behaviour is morally wrong but think it may be difficult to legislate and manage but we would like to see something introduced to any new cemetery rules which covers this in a fair manner.
It is interesting to see the commentary from the other petiton on our post. When we questioned the morality of them taking photographs in cemeteries and how it may invade on the sacred private space as well as personal space and privacy they cited several times it was legal so they would continue to do so. Others also cited it was legal to take such photographs and did not understand our concerns. If we follow their logic on these photographs and are only bound by legislation and not morals why should dogs be stopped from urinating on gravestones at this present time?
As stated we don't agree with dogs urinating on gravestones but appreciate for some it may be hard to avoid (for others it may be easy) and for others they may not share this moral and there is no rules to stop them. That is not justifying but trying to understand why it happens, for if you understand something you are halfway to potentially solving your problem.
As stated we believe that a rule should be introduced which reflects this difficulty whilst also stating the important reasons surrounding respectfully trying not to let your dog do this.
As also stated before there are many reasons that somone may respectfully visit a cemetery - with grieving being the most important given what cemeteries are intended for. Some people will go to a cemetery for a walk - this is socially accepted. Why should somone with a well behaved, on lead dog not be allowed to visit for the same reasons as anyone else?
Thank you for reading, especially if you made it this far - let's keep the pressure on and ensure cemeteries4all x
List of your local Councillors:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0
List of who is due to be at the committee meeting including committee members:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMeetingAttendance.aspx?ID=7281
Website where further information will be posted in relation to the meetings, we understand around a week before the meeting:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=139&MId=7281
The Scotsman article where you can place your vote (it is not binding in any way):