Hi all
Many thanks to our new and continuing signers, sharers and surprise donators - together we can do this!
It less than a month till officials meet and we see if this becomes reality - if you want to help stop dogs being banned (with or without exemptions) please:
- Keep sharing this petition - research has shown that people need to see a petition many times before signing
- Speak to people you think may be interested - only if you feel comfortable to do so
- Write to your local councillor
- Write to members of the comittee on the board that decides these rules.
- Give a written or spoken despotition to the comittee yourself.
- Vote on the Scotsman article
- Email us for further ideas on how to get involved
As always you can contact us at:
There have been a lot of discussions on social media and from the other petition re dogs urinating on headstones.
Whilst we agree this is unpleasant and we personally believe is disrespectful to the deceased person and their family we also understand how difficult it may be to avoid. Our biggest thought on this area recently has been - is it actually legislated for and against offical current cemetery rules?
Current official council cemetery rules relating to dogs in cemeteries are:
'Dogs and Horses – the
following acts are
prohibited;
- 3.1 Failing to keep your dog on a lead whilst in the cemetery.
- 3.2 Commercial dog walking
- 3.3 Allowing a dog to foul in a cemetery contrary to the provisions of the Dog Fouling (Scotland) Act 2003.'
Full current offical council cemetery rules: https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/33467/cemetery-management-rules
So what does the Dog Fouling (Scotland) Act 2003 say in relation to dog fouling and does it apply to urination?
From the act we can see:
'1. Offence:
(1) Subject to section 3, if a dog defecates at any time upon any place to which this Act applies and a person who is in charge of the dog at that time fails immediately to remove the faeces from the place, that person shall be guilty of an offence'
Full Dog Fouling (Scotland) Act: 2003: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2003/12/contents
As can be clearly seen dog fouling offences relate to cleaning up excrement/faeces/poo not a dog doing a poo and NOT urination/pee/piddle etc.
So the photos shared by the other petition of dogs on leads (adhering to current offical rules) urinating on gravestones are by rule and law not doing anything wrong. - don't worry we are still following up on the issue of photographs, please feel free to email us about this.
We personally suspect dog urination has not been included in the law or cemetery rules as realistically it is a natural function that is difficult for an an outside party (i.e dog owner) to control. Some dogs can be unpredictable when they pee, it's impossible to bag and bin a pee and your likeliness to step in it and take it around on your shoe for hours or for a kid touch it and get a disease is drastically less - it is different to dog faeces.
There's also the facts that pee can be washed off by rain (no issue with lack of rain in Edinburgh) and wildlife will pee and poo on gravestones and you can't legislate for that - it's nature.
We do, however, as stated personally agree with the other petition that urination on graves is disrespectful and would prefer if people tried not to let their dog do it - we do understand how hard this may be. We feel this is especially important if it may play a part in getting dogs banned with or without exemptions in our council cemetries.
How can we solve this? Is it even feasible?
Many years of knowing dogs has let us know they are all individual, we would say the majority of the time we can tell when our dog is going to pee and take steps to ensure it is appropriate. However, it is at times difficult to tell. The point being it can be hard to know when they will go and what the target will be.
Having said that, in our experience it is not impossible to avoid urination on gravestones although it is easier for a female dog than a male who needs something to pee against. Main paths are usually wide enough that you can walk them and the dog will pee on the edge of the grass, as long as there's no grave there it shouldn't be an issue, this is for a female dog. I guess with a male it would just be making sure it wasn't able to reach gravestones and letting it pee against a sign post or bin or something. We do acknowledge how difficult it may be to do but even to try would be great.
Instead of banning dogs with or without exemptions for doing something that isn't even covered by rules could we not work on this together in some realistic way and educate dogs walkers and everyone on the respectful ethos of cemeteries? Maybe we could work something realistic into rules around awareness and trying not to let your dog do this?
In our house there's an unwritten rule that you close the toilet door, we feel this is respectful to everyone in the house and offers dignity to the person themself. If a friend visited and did not close the door we would be upset, as I'm sure many would. We don't know why the friend did this - do they have a urine infection and didn't have time to close the door in case they wet themself? Do they live alone and don't normally close the door and were on auto pilot? There could be many reasons our personal (but widely accepted) rule does no necessarily apply to their thinking.
Should we ban them from the house and visiting anyone else's house forever OR explain that in most households it is respectful to close the door and to please do this?
It feels incredibly unjust and disproportionate to ban (with or without exemptions) a majority of dog walkers in all council cemeteries when it is a minority who do this in a minority of cemetries and it isn't even a current rule.
As we have stated many times people visit cemeteries to grieve for loved ones and many other accepted reasons - why should someone miss out on this if they have a well behaved dog, on lead and follow rules?
We have also said and the council has documentation of this, people can feel safer with a dog with them in a cemetery. Further the footfall from dogs can help deter unwanted or illegal behaviours - the other day we even reported on a cemetrey where people with dogs clean up mess left by others.
As a final point we would like to address social media comments and the other petition re our main statement and their exemptions for mourners and assistance dogs.
When they first wrote their main aim statement they did not include any exemptions - it does not matter what beliefs or intentions were or that information was on another platform, it was not in the main aim statement that people were signing up to. Our main aim statement was written in reflection of this.
Our understanding is you do not change your main aim statement on this platform, however, the other petition has done this a few times - firstly to add in exemptions and secondly to add in links and other information. They may have changed it more than this but to be honest we have better things to do than watch their main statement for changes.
In keeping with our understanding re not changing main statements we did not change ours but promptly posted an update stating they had changed theirs to add exemptions and we have discussed this in detail and referred to this many times since.
Further, as also discussed many times we personally believe an exemption for mourners may actually be harmful to mourners whose grief and mourning will be infringed upon to prove why they are there.
Their other exemption re assistance dogs is a legal exemption which would happen regardless of if they asked for it. However, emotional support dogs would not be excempt as despite that fact they can be a prescribed treatment they are not legally recognised at this time in this country.
Furthermore, these exemptions are a request by the other peition. We know some councillors want a full/total ban with legal exemptions only so it is possible there may be a "total" ban with only legal excemptions - we are against either a ban with exemptions or a total ban and feel our main aim statement and updates cover this.
Let's keep working together to keep cemetries4all respectful, responsible users.
List of your local Councillors:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0
List of who is due to be at the committee meeting including committee members:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMeetingAttendance.aspx?ID=7281
Website where further information will be posted in relation to the meetings, we understand around a week before the meeting:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=139&MId=7281
The Scotsman article where you can place your vote (it is not binding in any way):