Hi all
Many thanks to our new and continuing signers, sharers and surprise donators - together we can do this!
After an upturn in signers last week we appear to be slowing down.
Please remember to share this petition or just tell people you think might be interested - word of mouth is still important in these digital times.
The petition isn't everything, there are other ways to help which are noted below.
It less than a month till officials meet and we see if this becomes reality - if you don't believe dogs should be banned (with exemptions) please:
- Keep sharing this petition - research has shown that people need to see a petition many times before signing
- Speak to people you think may be interested - only if you feel comfortable to do so
- Write to your local councillor
- Write to members of the comittee on the board that decides these rules.
- Give a written or spoken despotition to the comittee yourself.
- Vote on the Scotsman article
As always you can contact us at:
cemeteries4all@yahoo.com
Today the other petition posted an update around possble high numbers of people with dogs in Morningside.
They also mentioned Warriston cemetery and cited what we believe is incomparable unclear information.
We have heard from council officials that Warriston and Morningside cemeteries are two of the cemeteries most complained about in relation to dogs - remembering people rarely if ever write in to say things are good.
We are still to see official statistics on the adherance to rules but we believe that like others cemeteries we have evidence to show it is a minority who break rules.
Even IF these two cemeteries are problematic this is two cemeteries out of 43 - as discussed in the last couple of updates should we be making rules for 43 cemeteries based on a minority where the majority do not have issues with dogs.
Indeed the other petiton has shared photos last week where 4 out of 5 photos (80%) showed dogs being on lead - current offical rules. We suspect after having pointed this out we will no longer see these images but they have them and we hope in the interest of full disclosure they ensure they send these to councillors alongside any other photos. This is not for our sake as we have information but for their own sake.
Of course if you've been reading our updates we don't agree with such photos but are awaiting correspondence from officials we have contacted before commenting further on this matter.
Furthermore, today the other petition shared point 4.9 from the cemetery rules consultation that took place in 2022 - before current rules were implemented:
4.9 An example of operational challenges for the service can be found at Warriston
Cemetery. Although not considered a fully operational cemetery, there were coffin
burials in each of the last three years and the interment of nine sets of cremated
remains (ashes) in the same period. Bereaved families have a right to expect the
cemetery to be a safe space for remembrance and reflection. However, between
3.00pm and 4.00pm on 30 December 2021 an officer noted at least 50 dogs in that
one-hour period. Whilst most dogs were on leads or to heel there were a number
that were running around prompting the officer to speak to the dog owners"
To see the consultation results in full, including women's and vunerable groups safety concerns in relation to banning dogs, please view this link: https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/documents/s47927/Cemetery%20Rules%20Update%20-%20FINAL%20v2.pdf
We fully agree bereaved families have the right to expect the cemetery to be a safe space for remembrance and reflection, we personally extend this to include if they have a dog with them for support and we support dogs on lead.
As we can see from the report "most" dogs were on leads with a "number" running around - ok - but how many is "most" and "a number" could mean 2 - we need actual numbers to define a problem not vague wording. How many dogs were actually there? How many dogs were actually on lead and off lead? Were dogs actually causing any issues? Warriston cemetery is huge - did the number of dogs actually seem overwhelming in this space? This observation was taken over an hour, a long time in terms of a dog walk - how many were actually there at once? Given when this information was observed (2021) does it actually show anything relevent to today - is it related to current cemetery use and issues?
As stated this was before the new rules came into effect in 2022. These cover off lead behaviour, at the time of the 4.9 observation there was no stipulation for this so how can we judge people for not doing something when they weren't asked to.
It is also worth remembering that in December 2021 (when this observation occurred) there were serious concerns about covid numbers on the rise. New covid measures were being introduced frequently with the threat of Christmas being cancelled and council cemeteries were actually freely open to people with dogs who were encouraged to walk dogs near their home - including in cemeteries.
In our opinion 4.9 is an example that is completely incomparable to any situation now - there were no rules except legislation relating to dog fouling and general control and people with dogs were allowed and encouraged to use the space.
As you can see burials do take place in this cemetery (as is the potential in most council cemeteries), however, we would query whether the bereaved are a majority footfall and thus a footfall which protects the inhabitants and visitors to the cemetery by deterring unwanted or illegal behaviour. As discussed in our last two updates there are potential positives to dogs being in cemetries.
In 2018 a study by Edinburgh University was carried out in Morningside and Warriston cemetries on "everyday use" and health and wellbeing benefits in relation to visiting cemetries https://www.mdpi.com/2413-8851/3/3/72
This study highlighted many benefits of being in a cemetery and also highlighted that at the time the majority footfall in Warriston was dogs (when according to the other petition dogs were banned) and in Morningside the majority footfall was people cutting through the cemetery although there were a number of people with dogs noted (again when the other petition state there was a no dog rule in place).
Whilst this was in 2018, in academic and research circles 10 years is generally considered relevent so this would still be considered relevent under these stipulations. However, the study was pre covid so some behaviours may have changed - we would suspect more use like this rather than less but that is just our opinion. What this study does without a doubt show is that a ban on dogs did not work and was not enforced in at least 2 of the council run cemeteries - if officials are to be believed the ban did not work in any cemeteries.
Why return to something we know doesn't work when the majority follow current rules and provide a footfall providing safety for cemetery inhabitants and visitors by deterring unwanted or even illegal behaviors.
We know and this study highlighted there are many reasons a person may visit a cemetrey including mourning, like we say visiting ancestral graves may be another reason or they may want to look at historical graves, enjoy the nature and quiet space, have a short relaxing walk - we would have no issue if someone did this by themselves or with a human friend or family member why do we have an issue if that friend or family member happens to be in the form of a well behaved on lead dog.
Further this study highlights that cemeteries can provide important healing and maintenance properties for users - why should someone miss out on this because they are in the majority who have a well behaved on lead dog.
Should we really ban a majority of rule abiding people and their on lead well behaved dogs in 43 cemeteries when issues that MAY exist are in a minority of cemetries?
Should we do this knowing there are benefits of this population being in cemetries and when we know from previous experience a ban will most likely not be effective or enforced thus meaning we lose a valued means of protection because of a minority who break current rules and will most likely break new rules?
Would it not be better to stick with what we know works for the majority, what we know can provide benefits to cemetries but additonally offer education around rules and respectful cemetery use?
Let's keep working together to keep cemetries4all respectful, responsible users.
List of your local Councillors:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0
List of who is due to be at the committee meeting including committee members:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMeetingAttendance.aspx?ID=7281
Website where further information will be posted in relation to the meetings, we understand around a week before the meeting:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=139&MId=7281
The Scotsman article where you can place your vote (it is not binding in any way):