Hi all
Thank you all - our new and continuing signers, sharers, surprise donators and social media defenders.
At the time of writing we have 1, 104 signatures - shall we see if we can get that up to the next change.org goal of 1, 500?
It is less than a month till the meeting where councillors will discuss the rules in relation to dogs in cemeteries - if you don't believe dogs should be banned (with or without excemptions) please:
- Keep sharing this petition - research has shown that people need to see a petition many times before signing
- Write to your local councillor
- Write to members of the comittee on the board that decides these rules.
- Give a written or spoken despotition to the comittee yourself.
- Vote on the Scotsman article
- Contact us to get more involved, share your views or stories on why you support us: cemeteries4all@yahoo.com
Yesterday's update post from us shared the fact that two officials state there are no "revised rules", "trial rules" or "official Edinburgh Council trial Cemetery Management Rules for dogs" in Morningside Cemetery. Today we have heard the same from a third offical.
Our post from yesterday: https://www.change.org/p/halt-the-petitioned-ban-on-dogs-in-edinburgh-cemeteries/u/32741321
The only cemetery rules in Morningside and all council run cemeteries are those decided in 2022: https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/33467/cemetery-management-rules
We had hoped that the other petiton which used the above wording such as "trial rules" frequently in their recent updates would acknowledge and address this.
We also hoped that they would maybe offer an explanation and apologise to their supporters and other members of the public for their misleading information on the matter - at the time of writing this they have not (but there's still hope).
Our final hope was they would apologise to those whose photographs they had posted incorrectly citing them as rule breakers. Although faces were blocked out there were still features which they could be identified by and thus such information could have potential problems for the person who by law and cemetery rules did nothing wrong. At the time of writing this they have not apologised for this or taken these photos down (but, again, there's still hope).
The only possible slight acknowledgement they may have made in relation to our update yesterday was their post today titled "If Anyone Deserves An Apology, It Is This Poor Couple..."
As we have said we don't know if this relates to our post and our stated hopes they would apologise to people. If it does then are they suggesting their supporters and other members of the public do not deserve an apology for being mislead by them (even if it was, as we hope, accidentally)? Are they stating people they incorrectly accused of breaking cemetery rules and who's image they posted online do not deserve an apology? Are they even stating their supporters and other memebers of the public don't deserve the truth from them as they haven't issued an apology for the misinformation they gave? We can't comment as we are not them but we sincerely hope they would respect their supporters and other members of the public more than this.
Back to their post from today: https://www.change.org/p/edinburgh-council-to-reinstate-no-dogs-in-cemeteries-rule-that-was-in-place-pre-covid/u/32743011
This post contains a very sad, even traumatic video by a woman and her husband who at the time of cemetery rules being devised (we think) lived in Warriston cemetery lodge - we have to admit it brought tears to our eyes. We certainly agree with the other petition that the couple do deserve an apology - from those (including non dog walkers) who caused them a lot of upset. It truely is a horrific story.
However, with all respect to the couple we did wonder the relevance of the video to today's issue in cemeteries and discussions on cemetery rules relating to dogs.
The facts are this was filmed at the discussion on current cemetery rules before they were brought into place and just following covid when dog walkers were allowed to use cemeteries and possibly even encouraged as they were asked to walk close to home.
Whilst this couple's story is truly awful and we do not dismiss it in anyway the fact is we now have cemetery rules 1.1 and 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3 which cover all these behaviours alongside laws (unchanged as far as we know) which covers some of behaviours as well.
We cannot use their story as an example of current rules not working and needing to be changed because there were no such rules then. This is a very similar to our update on the 8th where again outdated incomparable data was posted by the other petition.
Perhaps rather than trying to manipulate or misinform people by sharing this out dated incomparable information the other petition is merely introducing us to this couple and they are going to do a follow-up to see if things have changed for them since the rules came in in 2022 - then attempt to use that up to date informatiom as possible evidence of rules needing changed.
We don't know but what we do know is that rules were not in place at that time and social situations (covid) were very different to now so data from that time cannot be compared to now where we have cemetery rules and people are not encouraged to stay near home.
Furthermore, this is one cemetery out of 43. Resectfully, should we change rules out of 43 cemeteries for behaviour in one or two cemeteries? Or should we leave other cemeteries that are managing fine alone or even work on behaviours that are relevent to them and concentrate on sorting issues in these one or two cemeteries seperately by ensuring current rules which cover all these behaviours are adhered to?
We feel for Mr and Mrs Peden and thank them for sharing their story which must have taken a lot of bravery. We hope that they are feeling less stressed and things have improved for them. If not, we would hope that porportionate measures are taken to ensure behaviours are improved to help these people but also not negatively affect those who are doing no wrong.
As you will have seen, we have mentioned facts and misinformation in this post a lot.
This is because we belive facts are essential for people to make an informed descision - yes opinion and emotion also play a part but without facts you could be deciding on a completely different thing to what you think you are.
At cemeteries4all we respect our supporters and other members of the public and we always endeavour to share up to date relevent facts with you. This is so you can make an informed choice whether to support us and what you think in relation to dog rules in cemeteries. Yes, at times we may say it clumsily or on occassion get it wrong (we are human and make mistakes but we will acknowledgeand apologise if we do) and information may even change after we have written something but that is always our aim - to be honest with you and share factual up to date, relevant information. Below you'll find some of the facts we have shared this week:
Saturday 6th July - we showed other cemeteries have other issues. In this post we shared a shocking photo (without infringing on people's privacy or grief) from New Calton Burial Ground which showed a huge amount of rubbish spread across one corner of the cemetery. This included items which suggested possible safety issues - a campfire like fire, shaving razors, shaving razors heads, hundreds of used IV injection cookers, hundreds of IV needle seaths, hundreds wrappers for syringes, drug cookers, needles and empty water for injection ampoules - there were other items but the list would be very long.
We also noted that in 4 out of 5 photos shared by the other peition in the last week dog walkers were adhering to current cemetery rules - 80%
Sunday 7th July - we again shared evidence of other issues in other cemeteries and that dog walkers can actually help. In the email shared by a cemetery user we heard of people smoking drugs, drinking and leaving rubbish in the cemetery - rubbish which dog walkers clear up.
Monday 8th July - we discussed informatiom the other petition had shared from 21/12/2021 to presumably "back-up" their argument against dogs in cemeteries (with excemptions). We discussed how this information was collated during covid and before current cemetery rules were put in place and when people were encouraged to walk close to home (including in cemeteries) and thus was not comparable to current times and decisions should not be lead by that information as it does not reflect current circumstances. This gave us no evidence of if the rules were working or not only evidence that before rules there were possible issues.
We also gave evidence that the ban in place pre covid (which the other petition request council return to in their petition title) was not adhered to or enforced in Morningside or Warriston cemetries - the two cemeteries they discuss as having issues. We also stated that council officials have told us this lack of adherence and lack of enforcement applied to all cemeteries.
Tuesday 9th July - we controversially shared with you rules on dogs urination.
It is not dog fouling as titled in two of the photos of the other petition - the Dog Fouling (Soctland) 2003 Act refers to dog faeces not being cleaned up.
It is not in cemetery rules either.
Whilst we personally agree is it unpleasant and feel it is disrespectful that is our and others thoughts the fact is it is not legislated for in rule or law.
We stated we would like for some sensible consideration of this in rules.
Yesterday - Wednesday 10th July - We shared the current cemetery rules across all 43 Edinburgh council cemeteries and clarified that officials state there are NO TRIAL RULES in Morningside cemetery - it was stated by the other petition fairly frequently there were.
Today - Thursday 11th July - you have just read it although we would like to add that in the last two weeks the other petition have shared 8 photos of dog walkers in the cemetery - 6 of these (75%) showed dog walkers adhering to current rules - a majority. One photo they have shared twice so you could see that as 5 out of 6 (71%) - a majority.
Hopefully we have demonstrated we will always try our hardest to be honest and share facts with you to ensure you can make an informed descision (if you even wish to make one) in relation to Edinburgh council cemetery rules and issues of dogs and other behaviours in our Edinurgh Council Cemeteries.
Final words for today
We essentially want the same thing as the other petiton - to improve behaviours in our cemeteries and to keep the respectful peacful ethos of cemeteries. At cemeteries4all we just want to do this in a different way. We want to ensure behaviours relevent to cemetries are addressed in a fair and just way for all that won't have detrimental effects on others.
As before there are many reasons that someone may respectfully visit a cemetery - with grieving being the most important given what cemeteries are intended for. Some people will go to a cemetery for a walk - this is socially accepted. Why should someone with a well-behaved, on lead dog not be allowed to visit for the same reasons as anyone else?
We fully believe there are positives to having dogs in cemeteries and that it is unjust to remove them (with or without exemptions) when we belive it is a minority causing issues in a minority of our 43 cemeteries. We also worry about the consequences of doing so given the positives they can bring.
Yes, behaviour (not just in relation to dogs) does need to be improved in many of our cemeteries, but we believe education on cemetery rules and the respectful ethos of cemeteries is key - not excluding a majority of potentitally useful and protective rule abiding people for issues caused by a minority in a minority of cemeteries.
Thank you for reading, especially if you made it this far - let's keep the pressure on and ensure cemeteries4all x
List of your local Councillors:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0
List of who is due to be at the committee meeting including committee members:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMeetingAttendance.aspx?ID=7281
Website where further information will be posted in relation to the meetings, we understand around a week before the meeting:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=139&MId=7281
The Scotsman article where you can place your vote (it is not binding in any way):