Fix Loki for Season 2
The Issue
For many Loki stans and veteran fans, the Loki series felt like a spit in the face. The series was extremely out of character, the “representation” did more harm than good, the writing was messy, and was inconsistent with prior information established within the MCU. Many felt the series was not about the Loki we know and love. Please continue reading for an explanation of the previously listed issues.
(Read with images and by topic here Change auto asks for donations, we aren’t collecting money please donate to lgbt or mental health charities instead)
Poor representation:
Loki is never called genderfluid in the show. Loki has been genderfluid quite a while now in the comics. Yet all we see is a piece of paper that says “sex: fluid” implying he is a shapeshifter but his gender identity is still cismale. This has caused a great number of people to deny Loki’s gender on social media. Even throwing around transphobic words and slurs, saying Loki would never be trans. Implying that’s a bad thing to be.
Origin of Loki’s gender: In an old comic Loki possesses the body of Lady Sif, however since then things have been retconned and altered. Tom signed on to the first Thor movie knowing Loki was Genderfluid. Loki’s genderfluidity shouldn’t be up for discussion. His character is based on a Norse god, who is genderfluid. Loki in the comics has even spoken on his gender identity. Loki is depicted in many comics as “female” (Even explicitly calling himself genderfluid in a panel of a Squirrel Girl comic.) In the comic Original Sin: Thor & Loki The Tenth Realm, Odin refers to Loki as “my child who is both”
in God Who Fell to Earth, Loki talks about what he likes to wear when feeling femme and that he uses all pronouns. Also Agent of Asgard explicitly saying he is himself in both forms. This shows that Loki, though seen shifting from “male to female” identifies as genderfluid and isn’t doing it for an advantage such as spying. In the book Where Mischief Lies, Loki says he is equally comfortable as both a man and a woman.
Rep in the series: The team praised themself with their depiction of Loki’s genderfluidity. Despite never showing or mentioning it. head writer Michael Waldron said, "I know how many people identify with Loki in particular and are eager for that representation, especially with this character. We worked really hard." (Source https://href.li/?https://www.cbr.com/loki-director-explains-show-mcu-gender-fluidity/?_gl=1*p2n8xk*_ga*YW1wLVNqekFiQ3lzZWxUcnY2OEJHRDZPbmNzSWk5ZzBYOFBILUxwaHdUbzZwV2psaE5LMDh4NDU4QjlJMmxVSTIwWUc in another interview Waldron also stated “That’s an important part of who this character is, and certainly who he represents to such a large part of the fanbase and everything, so never a debate on that at all. Meaning they were aware of Loki’s gender, and it’s importance to the community.
This is all well and good except Loki’s genderfluidity is never mentioned. Not only that but there are comments that deny his gender all together. Such as when Loki meets the other Loki variants saying “have you ever seen a women variant?” The director commented on this saying "…Maybe they’re not gender fluid, those particular Lokis. I would say it’s open to interpretation, that would be my thinking. It’s one of those things I guess where things can contradict slightly, but that would be my logic." (source: https://href.li/?https://thedirect.com/article/loki-sylvie-gender-surprise-variants-exclusive on Lamentis Loki says “what makes a Loki a Loki?” …Is gender identity not part of what makes you, you? All Loki’s should be genderfluid. Not just one.
Sacrifice for the series: Loki is genderfluid and bisexual. He was featured in the Marvel Voices: Pride comic under gender identity, sexuality and on the cover. However he was removed from the cover. People had noticed Loki’s disappearance. He was returned to the cover after backlash. No one truly knows why he was removed, however some speculate it was to make his debut in the series “more significant” despite being genderfluid in the comics for quite a while. The revoking of Loki’s depiction on the cover is literal erasure. (Sources https://href.li/?https://bleedingcool.com/comics/disappearing-reappearing-queer-loki-on-marvels-voices-pride-cover/ and a really good one on why it’s a problem https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/comic-watch.com/news/commentary/holding-out-for-a-hero-loki-erasure-and-the-future-of-trans-representation-lokis-genderfluidity-in-marvel-pt-2/amp
Selfcest: Now the issues of Sylvie and Loki’s relationship are more complicated. For this we have to dig into some controversy. Selfcest is defined as being self + incest. Writer Eric Martin even liked a tweet about incest being “hot” selfcest is a trope that has long been used to mock bisexual and trans people. It is based in Autogynophilia which is being aroused by the thought of ones self as the opposite gender. Usually Male envisioning as Female. Autogynophilia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard%27s_transsexualism_typology#Autogynephilia)was even a symptom within the DSM-5 to categorize as a mental illness. In reality there are very few trans people with this fetish, and I assume cis people exist with this fetish as well. It was used to exploit gender envy and dysphoria. It’s unlikely the writers did this intentionally, but rather lacked proper research. The “representation” they have being more harmful than good. Loki is the first trans MCU character and yet is given problematic stereotypes. Sylvie’s hair color and name are even changed so you don’t associate her as “Loki” making it a bit less creepy….I guess. It goes as far as them never discussing their shared brother, Thor. however they discuss their adoptive parents and share the same last name. Laufeyson (meaning son of laufey) and Laufeydottir(meaning daughter of laufey) meaning if either were to present as opposite gender(as Loki so frequently does in the comics) they would share the same last name, as they share the same birth father. Kang and Mobius also comment on how the relationship is unnatural. They really put the first trans mcu character in an “unnatural” relationship…
Sylvie: Some see problems in the existence of Sylvie herself. This is up for interpretation, but I believe it is a product of subconscience bias and not purposeful malice. As the only “female variant” Sylvie’s name is taken from comic character Sylvie Lushton, but inspired by Amora and “Lady Loki” this takes away the opportunity to introduce these strong women characters. “Lady Loki” who is just Loki, when she is femme presenting, is now unlikely to be depicted as just Loki. Sylvie being female should not be exclusive to her. Genderfluidity does not mean some Loki’s are born of different sex. By Sylvie existing this means there is no need to show Loki in their femme form. Loki was depicted as an alligator before as presenting genderfluid.
As mentioned here by gamerrant (https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/gamerant.com/mcu-never-good-romance/amp/ a relationship isn’t always necessary. It often feels like in the MCU, there can never been a platonic friendship between “male” and “female” presenting people. This further pushes that they are “opposite” genders rather than fluid beings.
Trauma: Although voices of trauma are rarely heard (because who wants to announce their struggles to the world) several survivors of incest have stated their unease on twitter (no link as to keep anonymity) incest isn’t always the “f*ck you’re cousin” meme associated with the state of Alabama (which is ironically where Sylvie and Loki first met) incest is often unconsenusual. Loki and Sylvie’s “sibling esq” nature being uncomfortable for some viewers. Though we cannot censor content, putting the relationship in a positive light leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Especially after fan tweets saying #normalizeselfcest. the writers comment that the relationship was to depict self love (source https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.marvel.com/amp/articles/tv-shows/loki-sylvie-in-love however this is not a healthy way to show it. Healing is not found in a relationship, it’s found inside yourself. Not in the kissing yourself sort of way.
The representation of trauma was awful. It wasn’t even discussed as him being changed by what he’s endured. Only that he is a jerk. Not an explanation of why he acts the way he does. Erasing any trauma he has, and watering it down to that he’s just a bad person. The learning to love and being fixed stereotype is harmful and it enforced the idea that a relationship will make you find value in yourself. It can actually be more harmful to yourself and your partner, it’s best to get therapy before even being ready to enter a relationship or be romantically involved.
Bi rep: Bisexual people are just as valid the opposite sex as they are the same. So in that category there is little qualm. However, the single line of implied bisexuality did little to nothing. A writer and actor even bashed Loki’s bisexual representation https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/russell-davies-loki-bisexual-reveal-pathetic-feeble-gesture-2021-8%3famp The director, a bisexual woman, even tweeted “From the moment I joined @LokiOfficial it was very important to me, and my goal, to acknowledge Loki was bisexual. It is a part of who he is and who I am too. I know this is a small step but I’m happy, and heart is so full, to say that this is now Canon in” (tweet https://href.li/?https://twitter.com/iamkateherron/status/1407633677484539906?s=21 many worry that despite the poor rep, that Kate was the only one who pushed for the single bisexual line. Good article on the poor bi rep here (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/features/loki-bisexual-tom-hiddleston-marvel-b1872115.html%3famp
What if I like it? It it’s okay to enjoy content if you acknowledge the problems and fight for their change. A large argument for the canon ship is that not all genderfluid people feel hurt and that it’s not real. However there is an undeniable large amount that do feel hurt. To have empathy is to uplift the people who are harmed. Not all women feel insulted when called a sexist insults, or when mysogynistic tropes in movies are displayed, however they cannot be denied as harmful to many. Fiction does influence reality, especially in such as underrepresented group. For many this was the first introduction of the concept of genderfludity, and it was reduced to presenting as a cis shapeshifter who practices a harmful stereotype of selfcest. It feels like being ridiculed.
Who worked on it? There is no confirmation if any genderfluid people were consulted. However I think if enough research is done one can still have a positive portrayal. Al Ewing, the writer for Agent of Asgard, (the now cancelled 2019 comic) is a cis bisexual man but did amazing work representing Loki as genderfluid. The God Who Fell to Earth (also cancelled after only 5 issues) by Daniel Kibblesmith did a decent job casually ingraining it into Loki’s character.
Michael seemed to view it as if all criticisms were ship war related. Saying season 2 will not fall into fan service and will “subvert” fan expectations.
Trauma erasure:
Loki’s trauma was not once mentioned. Ignoring the troubles he’s gone through that shaped and changed him. This was an opportunity to address his life of being beaten down, and seen as a failure. Yet it was instead portrayed as Loki is just a bad person and that’s why he loses. It’s pushed that he is “narcissistic” the head writer and show runner even saying Loki is “an ass” as opposed to troubled And scarred.
a really great article discussing the effect of Loki’s hidden identity https://href.li/?https://medium.com/ap-marvel/the-tragedy-of-loki-of-asgard-is-the-unaddressed-trauma-of-adoption-2ad132a848e2
Loki is often described as a narcissist however it is a common mistake. Loki uses a confident mask to cover his internalized self hatred. Loki is a great character to break down and examine what makes him bad. For this we are gonna talk about strictly the MCU and start back at Thor 1. In a scene of Loki and Thor as kids we see Odin telling a tale of how he slaughtered the frost giants, and took their source of power away. Loki is raised to believe Jotunn are evil, barbaric monsters. When he finds out he’s an adopted frost giant, his world comes crashing down. Odin admits he only took Loki because he thought as the heir to Laufey, he could one day Unite the kingdoms. It was a political ploy, adopting the son of his enemy out of advantage and not empathy. Loki is neglected his entire life, being told he isn’t good enough. In https://href.li/?https://youtu.be/P23aKF-694k it is shown how much he actually supported his brother despite being somewhat rivals and jealous of his brother being the favorite. When Loki tries to stand up for Thor after Odin banishes him, Odin silences Loki without any consideration. When Loki finds out he’s a frost giant, he tries to prove his loyalty by killing his birth father in front of the sleeping yet aware Odin. Showing he’d protect his adopted father rather, than his blood father. Trying to emphasize his loyalty to asgard and not jotunnheim. Loki may be the god of tricks, but not always the god of evil. In the What If: the Party Thor episode, we see if Loki was raised comfortable with his identity, and raised with love, he is carefree and mischievous but not evil. At the end of Thor 1 Loki tells Odin everything he’s done was to prove he’s worthy of the same love as Thor, and is devoted to him. When Odin denies this of Loki, he lets go and disappears into the blackhole thinking it would kill him. In the avengers Thor said he thought Loki was dead meaning that was his ultimate intention. Loki’s entire world was ripped from him and when he tries to prove he’s a dedicated and loyal son his father denies him. Watching him there as Loki let’s go in effort to kill himself. Tom discusses what happens to Loki (synopsis https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenrant.com/loki-thor-movie-death-after-where-what-happened/amp/ panel video https://href.li/?https://youtu.be/5TTzKXMfb8Q
A broken Loki, who has been floating with his on mind, is found by Thanos and tortured. Many scenes with Loki are cut as they make the viewer empathize too much with him (avengers deleted scenes https://href.li/?https://youtu.be/9m3NpkeTOmk Loki is being controlled by Thanos and the mindstone. When he’s first teleported to earth in front of Nick Fury he looks extremely sickly and deranged. Though this was never outright confirmed he was controlled there’s plenty of evidence to back it up. (Short list https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.esquire.com%2Fentertainment%2Fmovies%2Fa25693581%2Fthanos-loki-scepter-fan-theory%2F&t=YWEyYjZkNDc5NzM0ZjllNjYxMTc3YTIyNjk5ZDQ5NGJkOWU4MGUyMCwwYzhkNzgxN2FiOTQxODdlNzE1NzcxNTExMDg3Y2NhZTcyOWE3YTlk&ts=1634033270
“In relation to Loki was just, it was just bad parenting. Lots of the reasons why he is who he is it’s ‘cause he’s being unloved and undervalued. He doesn’t belong anywhere. He’s been betrayed he’s been lied to.” - Tom Hiddleston
The Loki we seen in the TVA though a variant, is still the 2012 Loki pulled from the sacred timeline. This would be the most unloved, unhinged, bitter and afraid version of Loki. Yet He isn’t scarred, or wary. He’s not particularly angry or sly. Remember this Loki just ripped an eye out, killed 80 in two days and got whipped around by the Hulk. Then brought into a strange new world where he can’t use magic for the first time. He’s stripped naked despite his lack of compliance and yet is “cooperative” with the authority figure in threat of death. Loki has never had an authority figure in his life that hasn’t mistreated him.
We don’t get an explanation of why he acts the way he does. Not once do we explore his frost giant heritage, how he grew up unloved, how he attempted to end his life only to be kidnapped by Thanos. Loki most likely was predisposed to a bit of bad but lead writer and show runner Michael Waldron comments “Loki is an ass, and that makes my life as a writer, easy.” (Source:https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/movieweb.com/amp/loki-mcu-cameos/ Loki often displays angry outbursts, hard time maintaining close relationships, as well as immense guilt. These are very common results in a person who has been abused (source: https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mayoclinic.org%2Fdiseases-conditions%2Fpost-traumatic-stress-disorder%2Fsymptoms-causes%2Fsyc-20355967&t=NDQ0MGFkMGIyNjJmYmUyZWQzOTRlMjMzOTM4MzdhMmI2ZDg5ZjkwNixiNjUwYTAzMjUwYzU1OTk0MmVhN2IwMDhiODRhY2M3ZjMwZGZkNzA2&ts=1634034471and https://href.li/?https://www.helpguide.org/articles/ptsd-trauma/coping-with-emotional-and-psychological-trauma.htm his suffering does not excuse his actions but does give more explanation that him being “an ass” Loki is put in a time loop where he is repeatedly kicked until on his knees submissive under the guise of “comedy” being beaten into compliance. After all this time being kicked down now is when he changes, breaking his will? Sylvie also often tries to hit Loki, and degrades him saying she’s the ”superior Loki” despite him growing up second his whole life. yet his relationship with her is “self acceptance” (source: https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.marvel.com/amp/articles/tv-shows/loki-sylvie-in-love Tom Hiddleston comments “I don't think Loki's relationship with himself has been very healthy. Trying to accept those aspects of himself, which he's been on the run from, was a way of thinking about that in a really interesting way “ the director Kate Heron also comments “The whole show is about identity. It's about him, and he is on a very different path, and he is on a different journey. He sees things in Sylvie that he is like, ‘Oh, I've been there. I know what you feel.’” She claims it’s on identity however we don’t see anything addressing his behavior. (Same https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.marvel.com/amp/articles/tv-shows/loki-sylvie-in-love I find it unlikely that would take his most hated traits in himself, and love them. Loki hates himself, he isn’t a true narcissist and yet he’s healed in “self love” (Source:https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenrant.com/loki-sylvie-love-not-narcissism-self-loathing-duality/amp/
Many people who have endured abuse such as myself see their self in Loki. In the way he tries to mask his pain and seem collected often arrogant to cover how broken and alone he feels. Being constantly beaten down and having to take it and push through. Be strong because it’s the only thing you know how to do. While in Thor 1 there is scene of Loki aiding the escape of the warriors 3 and lady sif while Thor is fighting out of anger and ego. Loki tries to talk Thor out of fighting more than once and alerts Odin to Thors actions of bloodshed and treaty breaking. He is diplomatic and protective. Loki post avengers is much more full of cowardice and disappears when he is expecting something bad to happen, and I believe this is an escape mechanism post Thanos. Not wanting to endure the pain of reality. A short evaluation of Loki’s abuse ( https://href.li/?https://www.grunge.com/280328/tragic-details-about-marvels-loki/ ) shows the many aspects of him that were ignored and written away in the Loki series. Simply becoming “healed” and peppy after the intervention of Mobius where he is beaten down again and again. this wouldn’t cause sudden healing and would honestly make things much worse. Loki isn’t shown breaking or at rock bottom, similar how we saw him in TDW. His behavior “fixed” in a dehumanizing way like a dog in a shock collar. Loki is not ready for a relationship or quite ready for self love. This was not a display of character development but that ignoring Loki’s history and why he is the way he is. Most of what Loki does are learned behaviors. We often see Loki being humiliated for the sake of other characters or viewers enjoyment. Loki is driven by his trauma, it shapes the very being of who you are.
Finding yourself in love wasn’t a good portrayal. This is a negative depiction of self healing, as falling in love isn’t going to heal you. This is a stereotype often portrayed in media. For a long time I thought I could be saved if I fell in love, if someone loved me for me. However that was not the case at all. It took years of therapy and looking into myself. Addressing the trauma that shaped my childhood. being further abused does not fix your behavior, if changed at all you’re numb. yet Loki seems jovial.
Sophia comments on the kiss “fixing ” Loki “[Loki] says something really nice to her before they kiss. Loki basically says, ‘I’ve always hurt everyone I’ve always been close to. I’m a horrible person, but you’ve changed me because I care about you, and I want you to be OK.’ And for someone to say, ‘I want you to be OK,’ it’s such a nice thing to hear, especially for someone who’s damaged as Sylvie.” Sophia Di Martino, Sylvie’s actor even commented on how Sylvie lived a “harder life” saying Sylvie’s different from Lokis behavior “I didn't want to make Sylvie too posh, she hasn't had an easy life. She hasn't grown up as a princess, like Loki had grown up as a prince - she's had a very different experience. I wanted to keep her really grounded.” Trauma is not a contest and Sylvie being on the run, is not comparable to Lokis abuse for over 1000 years. In the first movie being the perfect diplomatic, collected, and educated prince but still never being enough for his father. (Source https://href.li/?https://www.leftlion.co.uk/read/2021/august/loki-star-sophia-di-martino-on-joining-the-marvel-universe/ )
It’s hard to believe after all this, being beaten around and watching a short video on his life’s failures, Loki no longer possess the same mannerisms. Mobius goes as far as to blame Loki for his mother’s death, despite his intention of sending the intruders to Thor, who could very much handle them. Frigga being the only person who ever showed love to Loki. There’s no way Loki would know his mother would be there. Mobius also insults Loki trying to break him down. Kate Herron comments on Sylvies behavior vs Loki’s change “She hasn't had the Mobius therapy session. She even says, in Episode Five, "I don't know how to do this. I don't have friends." (source: https://href.li/?https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a37050778/kate-herron-loki-finale-season-2-interview/ she also commented “He's on a very different path, and he's obviously done a lot of self-reflection and self-healing, his therapy with Mobius. Sylvie hasn't had” (source https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/collider.com/loki-kate-herron-director-interview-season-1-finale/amp/ ) now I’m not sure about Kates therapist, but that’s unlike any therapy I’ve ever had. This was not character development. Its not uncommon for victoms of abuse to end up in a relationship with an abuser because it’s familiar. However this would’ve be immensely atypical for Loki as he displays need for praise and reinforcement. Although unpopular Thor 2 had excellent character development for Loki.
Loki is sent to prison without any contact with his mother. She vouched for him, when Odin wanted him put to death. Odin says Loki’s birth right was to die. Gaslighting him. Reminder than Loki’s actions were under the control of Thanos. In TDW When a chained Loki is presented to Odin, Loki requests to be executed rather than spent the next 4000 years alone with his thoughts, and without contact with his mother. Yet he is not given trial. Loki has been to war, but in Thor 1 he does not display the murderous drive to rule, as he does mind controlled in the avengers. Though this scene ( https://href.li/?https://youtu.be/u_iOTgLoru0 )was never finished. We see Loki is living in a hellish reality. He is not allowed to attend his mother funeral, and creates an illusion so you cannot see him distraught on the floor. Unkept and room a mess (which is a very different look for him) when Thor visits him for the first time Loki asks if Frigga was in pain, but is shut down. Loki agrees to help Thor for the sake of vengeance for his mother. We see him take heroic moments out of his own will. (Which continue is Ragnarok despite the more comedic depiction of him)
In Ragnarok Loki leaves Odin in a geriatric home rather than kill him, yet Thor blames Loki for his death. Loki says he never meant for it to happen and in Odins final words, he gaslights Loki again saying he loved him despite Odins previously display of cruelty, to his adopted son. earlier saying he should’ve left him to die. Now saying he loved him.
“You weren’t born to be king, Loki. You were born to cause pain and suffering and death. That’s how it is, that’s how it was, that’s how it will be” -Mobius in Wandavision we see excellent character development of Wanda coming to terms with her grief, acknowledging the pain she feels yet isn’t ready to address it. I feel Loki was not given the same exploration of character.
Out of character:
In the series titled “Loki” it felt like anyone but. Loki is brought into the TVA with no magic. However even lacking magic Loki is a god. He, like Thor, has super strength, faster healing capabilities (bullets even bounce off him), superior endurance and is incredibly witty. Yet he is easily man handled by few TVA agents, when it took several avengers beating on him to subdue him. This is the same 2012 Loki. If shown a quick video and beat around (and definitely wouldn’t be on his knees) Loki would not become suddenly willing to change. His characters nature would be to shut off and shut down. Becomes irritable and closed instead. Even with “character development” we see in Thor The Dark World, Thor Ragnarok, and several of the recent comic books: even when good, Loki is still ultimately the trickster god. However there was a surprising lack of tricks in the series. We see Loki humiliated and tortured. Loki is defiant with a will of fire, that through all his troubles has never flickered. Yet in the series it is extinguished completely, and he follows the path set for him. He acts “silly” without retaining any purpose, wit, or intelligence. He follows after Sylvie like a lost kitten. Lacking any critical thinking Loki’s idea was to stab Aloith, who is essentially a cloud. Loki has progressively become underpowered and dumbed down, the punching bag for the sake of comedy. However the nerf he took in the series was critical. Loki is unable to do any of the magic previously established in the MCU. Strictly referring to his Seidr, he is on level with Wanda Maximoff and above Amora the Enchantress. Even surpassing Steven Strange in the comics. In the MCU he feels unable to keep up with even the crocodile. Only able to create firework or dry himself off…This brings us to our next issue…
Plot hole list:
These are plot holes and inconsistencies based on the previously established mcu world and not comics since we could go on forever about Nerco god and sorcerer supreme Loki.
Magic: Loki is unable to enchant in the series yet we see him enchant Valkeryie in Ragnarok. Marvels official bio of MCU Loki says “Loki possesses strength, durability, and longevity far superior to humans. The most powerful sorcerer in all of Asgard, Loki's magical abilities include astral projection, shape-shifting, hypnosis, molecular rearrangement, energy blasts, levitating, conjuration, cryokinesis, telekinesis and teleportation” (mind you this isn’t even comic Loki) He’s seen tipsy (which would take a massive amount of alcohol, remember Thor brings his own) and unable to produce magic other than fireworks. It’s unlikely Sylvie would be able to teach Loki anything new. Loki was formally trained in magic in his 1000+ years of study in Asgard. Where were his magical capabilities?
Combat skills: Loki is over 1000 years old. Raised in a warrior culture. The MCU bio says “A highly-tactical thinker, Loki is able to manipulate opportunities and events in his favor; his cunning mind far exceeding Thor and Odin's. Loki, an expert combatant, typically wields throwing knives and other small blades.” We also see him take on Thor with a staff to a draw. Without magic Asgardians still have Super Strength, advanced durability, faster healing regeneration and extended life span. He was able to be minimally injured after beaten by the hulk and knocked around by the avengers. However he was contained and overpowered by a small number of TVA agents. Loki has gone into battle and war alongside Thor. Even without magic he is a force to be reckoned with. Catching an arrow without even looking due to his high natural senses. Loki can touch the infinity stones while humans and most species cannot. We see bullets bounce off him. But suddenly is incompetent, resorting to throwing a vacuum at Sylvie possessing a human. Getting knocked to the ground.
Frost Giant: since there is no magic in the TVA many wondered how it was possible that Loki didn’t revert to his frost giant form. The explanation given by the team was that Odins magic was permanently altering, however that can’t be true if he turns blue when touching the casket. Also he was “cold” in the void with Sylvie. And we never even talked about him being a Jotunn
Lokis Allspeak: Loki acts confused in the first episode when he arrives in Mongolia and doesn’t know what the people are saying. As a god he has Allspeak. We can assume it exists in mcu because the people in Germany and Pompeii understand him. He also speaks English and old Norse. In GOTG most people have implanted translators, but Thor and Loki don’t need them to understand the alien races. In GOTG Quill doesn’t have universal translator just a general one, so he is unable to speak Sakaaran, yet Thor and Loki understand the language. I don’t believe Hulk speaks to anyone on Sakaar other than Valkyrie who also has Allspeak. Thor is one of the few who understands Groot, Thor makes a joke that he “took the language as an elective” however director James Gunn says it was merely a joke and he was able to understand it due to his godly abilities. How did Loki sing an “Asgardian” song without the entire thing coming out as English?
Alphabet: Although Asgardian language has Allspeak it’s writing is not. Loki signs his name with Latin letters when it should be in Norse runes. We see runes appear in Wandavision and so Loki should sign his name as ᛚᚢᚴᛁ.
I’m ignoring the sacred timeline and destiny is prewritten issues because I don’t have the energy…These are less of plot holes and more unexplained patches
Sylvie Pruned: Sylvie says she was pruned before Loki was even born. I assume she means her timeline, but timelines are reset and not erased. If she is the only “female variant” and that’s why caused her to be arrested by the TVA, why did they simply not get her at birth?
Sylvie’s Horns: ceremonially on a helm different symbols represent different achievements. Wings (Thor) mean royalty who has mastered battle. the uru horns (Loki) means Royal master of magic. Odins helmet has both. So we can assume Sylvie stole hers, since she wasn’t old enough to hone her Seidr. Did she steal them from Agent of Asgard Loki?
Laevateinn: (not to be mistaken with Gram the sword of Truth or the Twilight Sword) Loki’s sword than can be summoned to him. The sword can be used to channel magic through it. It can cut through anything except Mjolnir. (CBR has a good summary of how underwhelming the introduction of the blade was)
Amora the Enchantress: in Agents of Shield, Lorelei, Amora’s sister if featured. This implies Amora exists as well. however Amora was used as an inspiration for Sylvie and is likely not to be seen. Sylvie Laufeydottir becoming the Enchantress would contradict her as well as the comics. Sylvie Lushton being banished and never seen again after using Amoras title to gain attention. Amora adding “there is only one enchantress Sylvie Lushton” if there is a Sylvie and a Lorelei, where is Amora?
Timeline bombing: what happened after the bombing of the time line? Why did that have no effect?
Poor Writing:
This I won’t go in depth on as there are many explanation videos and film blogs who have addressed this…
Such as a short article here https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2021/06/08/loki-review-disney-disappoints-in-latest-mcu-live-action-series/?sh=5c32dd934f43 and a really excellent twitter thread (yes I know not a “reputable” source) by a film major here https://twitter.com/DIOLESBIAN/status/1416408887889211392?s=20
The overall writing felt messy. It jumped around too quickly without developing any real storyline, yet somehow also felt very slow (such as Kangs 20 min monologue.) Though excessive dialogue isn’t a bad thing, it breaks “Show, don't tell.” Something any writer or filmmaker is familiar with. It’s good to break norms, but it didn’t feel purposeful. The multiverse was interesting story to introduce and can be a confusing topic to write but felt generally, lack luster. I know we weren’t expecting Spielberg level cinema, but the writing lacked depth of character or nuance.
It is not a good sign when the show runner misspeaks and says it’s Odin who killed Laufey. While that happened in the original Thor comics, it has been retconned since the first Thor movie, as well as several times in the comics.
Though they may be looking too far into it. Many fans on social media even accuse Michael original script of being very similar to the Loki series.
Michael Waldron original script: (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/menwritingwomen/comments/owqap4/i_fear_for_wanda_maximoff/ similar to Sylvie being the “superior Loki” the characters in the script around the main character are brought down to lift her up in comparison. Rather that have her own equal achievements.
The out of characterness of Loki was not “character development.” If it was it wouldn’t feel..out of character. This isn’t fault of any of the actors, they can only do as well as the writing gives them.
We were all sold the idea of following to god of mischief influencing moments in time, yet this wasn’t what the series was about at all.
The trailers even containing clips that weren’t in the show. Even the show itself not feeling like it was about Loki. Fans were baited with the allure of an old character, finally getting the sun to shine on him…
This petition is asking for these aspects to be addressed and retconned in the next season, movies, or at the very least commented on. Marvel and Disney must be aware by now. Fans have written criticisms since the beginning of time. It was fans who convinced Sherlock Holes writer Sir Arthur Conan Doyle to revive his main character and continue the series. Fans are the consumers, and while casual fans make up the majority, they come and go. Veteran fans often are generational, purchase merch consistently, and share with their children, as my parents and so many others have. MCU fans alone have loved this character for over a decade. Our criticisms are valid (even if you think we are just whiny fanboys)
Thank you for reading
499
The Issue
For many Loki stans and veteran fans, the Loki series felt like a spit in the face. The series was extremely out of character, the “representation” did more harm than good, the writing was messy, and was inconsistent with prior information established within the MCU. Many felt the series was not about the Loki we know and love. Please continue reading for an explanation of the previously listed issues.
(Read with images and by topic here Change auto asks for donations, we aren’t collecting money please donate to lgbt or mental health charities instead)
Poor representation:
Loki is never called genderfluid in the show. Loki has been genderfluid quite a while now in the comics. Yet all we see is a piece of paper that says “sex: fluid” implying he is a shapeshifter but his gender identity is still cismale. This has caused a great number of people to deny Loki’s gender on social media. Even throwing around transphobic words and slurs, saying Loki would never be trans. Implying that’s a bad thing to be.
Origin of Loki’s gender: In an old comic Loki possesses the body of Lady Sif, however since then things have been retconned and altered. Tom signed on to the first Thor movie knowing Loki was Genderfluid. Loki’s genderfluidity shouldn’t be up for discussion. His character is based on a Norse god, who is genderfluid. Loki in the comics has even spoken on his gender identity. Loki is depicted in many comics as “female” (Even explicitly calling himself genderfluid in a panel of a Squirrel Girl comic.) In the comic Original Sin: Thor & Loki The Tenth Realm, Odin refers to Loki as “my child who is both”
in God Who Fell to Earth, Loki talks about what he likes to wear when feeling femme and that he uses all pronouns. Also Agent of Asgard explicitly saying he is himself in both forms. This shows that Loki, though seen shifting from “male to female” identifies as genderfluid and isn’t doing it for an advantage such as spying. In the book Where Mischief Lies, Loki says he is equally comfortable as both a man and a woman.
Rep in the series: The team praised themself with their depiction of Loki’s genderfluidity. Despite never showing or mentioning it. head writer Michael Waldron said, "I know how many people identify with Loki in particular and are eager for that representation, especially with this character. We worked really hard." (Source https://href.li/?https://www.cbr.com/loki-director-explains-show-mcu-gender-fluidity/?_gl=1*p2n8xk*_ga*YW1wLVNqekFiQ3lzZWxUcnY2OEJHRDZPbmNzSWk5ZzBYOFBILUxwaHdUbzZwV2psaE5LMDh4NDU4QjlJMmxVSTIwWUc in another interview Waldron also stated “That’s an important part of who this character is, and certainly who he represents to such a large part of the fanbase and everything, so never a debate on that at all. Meaning they were aware of Loki’s gender, and it’s importance to the community.
This is all well and good except Loki’s genderfluidity is never mentioned. Not only that but there are comments that deny his gender all together. Such as when Loki meets the other Loki variants saying “have you ever seen a women variant?” The director commented on this saying "…Maybe they’re not gender fluid, those particular Lokis. I would say it’s open to interpretation, that would be my thinking. It’s one of those things I guess where things can contradict slightly, but that would be my logic." (source: https://href.li/?https://thedirect.com/article/loki-sylvie-gender-surprise-variants-exclusive on Lamentis Loki says “what makes a Loki a Loki?” …Is gender identity not part of what makes you, you? All Loki’s should be genderfluid. Not just one.
Sacrifice for the series: Loki is genderfluid and bisexual. He was featured in the Marvel Voices: Pride comic under gender identity, sexuality and on the cover. However he was removed from the cover. People had noticed Loki’s disappearance. He was returned to the cover after backlash. No one truly knows why he was removed, however some speculate it was to make his debut in the series “more significant” despite being genderfluid in the comics for quite a while. The revoking of Loki’s depiction on the cover is literal erasure. (Sources https://href.li/?https://bleedingcool.com/comics/disappearing-reappearing-queer-loki-on-marvels-voices-pride-cover/ and a really good one on why it’s a problem https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/comic-watch.com/news/commentary/holding-out-for-a-hero-loki-erasure-and-the-future-of-trans-representation-lokis-genderfluidity-in-marvel-pt-2/amp
Selfcest: Now the issues of Sylvie and Loki’s relationship are more complicated. For this we have to dig into some controversy. Selfcest is defined as being self + incest. Writer Eric Martin even liked a tweet about incest being “hot” selfcest is a trope that has long been used to mock bisexual and trans people. It is based in Autogynophilia which is being aroused by the thought of ones self as the opposite gender. Usually Male envisioning as Female. Autogynophilia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard%27s_transsexualism_typology#Autogynephilia)was even a symptom within the DSM-5 to categorize as a mental illness. In reality there are very few trans people with this fetish, and I assume cis people exist with this fetish as well. It was used to exploit gender envy and dysphoria. It’s unlikely the writers did this intentionally, but rather lacked proper research. The “representation” they have being more harmful than good. Loki is the first trans MCU character and yet is given problematic stereotypes. Sylvie’s hair color and name are even changed so you don’t associate her as “Loki” making it a bit less creepy….I guess. It goes as far as them never discussing their shared brother, Thor. however they discuss their adoptive parents and share the same last name. Laufeyson (meaning son of laufey) and Laufeydottir(meaning daughter of laufey) meaning if either were to present as opposite gender(as Loki so frequently does in the comics) they would share the same last name, as they share the same birth father. Kang and Mobius also comment on how the relationship is unnatural. They really put the first trans mcu character in an “unnatural” relationship…
Sylvie: Some see problems in the existence of Sylvie herself. This is up for interpretation, but I believe it is a product of subconscience bias and not purposeful malice. As the only “female variant” Sylvie’s name is taken from comic character Sylvie Lushton, but inspired by Amora and “Lady Loki” this takes away the opportunity to introduce these strong women characters. “Lady Loki” who is just Loki, when she is femme presenting, is now unlikely to be depicted as just Loki. Sylvie being female should not be exclusive to her. Genderfluidity does not mean some Loki’s are born of different sex. By Sylvie existing this means there is no need to show Loki in their femme form. Loki was depicted as an alligator before as presenting genderfluid.
As mentioned here by gamerrant (https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/gamerant.com/mcu-never-good-romance/amp/ a relationship isn’t always necessary. It often feels like in the MCU, there can never been a platonic friendship between “male” and “female” presenting people. This further pushes that they are “opposite” genders rather than fluid beings.
Trauma: Although voices of trauma are rarely heard (because who wants to announce their struggles to the world) several survivors of incest have stated their unease on twitter (no link as to keep anonymity) incest isn’t always the “f*ck you’re cousin” meme associated with the state of Alabama (which is ironically where Sylvie and Loki first met) incest is often unconsenusual. Loki and Sylvie’s “sibling esq” nature being uncomfortable for some viewers. Though we cannot censor content, putting the relationship in a positive light leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Especially after fan tweets saying #normalizeselfcest. the writers comment that the relationship was to depict self love (source https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.marvel.com/amp/articles/tv-shows/loki-sylvie-in-love however this is not a healthy way to show it. Healing is not found in a relationship, it’s found inside yourself. Not in the kissing yourself sort of way.
The representation of trauma was awful. It wasn’t even discussed as him being changed by what he’s endured. Only that he is a jerk. Not an explanation of why he acts the way he does. Erasing any trauma he has, and watering it down to that he’s just a bad person. The learning to love and being fixed stereotype is harmful and it enforced the idea that a relationship will make you find value in yourself. It can actually be more harmful to yourself and your partner, it’s best to get therapy before even being ready to enter a relationship or be romantically involved.
Bi rep: Bisexual people are just as valid the opposite sex as they are the same. So in that category there is little qualm. However, the single line of implied bisexuality did little to nothing. A writer and actor even bashed Loki’s bisexual representation https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/russell-davies-loki-bisexual-reveal-pathetic-feeble-gesture-2021-8%3famp The director, a bisexual woman, even tweeted “From the moment I joined @LokiOfficial it was very important to me, and my goal, to acknowledge Loki was bisexual. It is a part of who he is and who I am too. I know this is a small step but I’m happy, and heart is so full, to say that this is now Canon in” (tweet https://href.li/?https://twitter.com/iamkateherron/status/1407633677484539906?s=21 many worry that despite the poor rep, that Kate was the only one who pushed for the single bisexual line. Good article on the poor bi rep here (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/features/loki-bisexual-tom-hiddleston-marvel-b1872115.html%3famp
What if I like it? It it’s okay to enjoy content if you acknowledge the problems and fight for their change. A large argument for the canon ship is that not all genderfluid people feel hurt and that it’s not real. However there is an undeniable large amount that do feel hurt. To have empathy is to uplift the people who are harmed. Not all women feel insulted when called a sexist insults, or when mysogynistic tropes in movies are displayed, however they cannot be denied as harmful to many. Fiction does influence reality, especially in such as underrepresented group. For many this was the first introduction of the concept of genderfludity, and it was reduced to presenting as a cis shapeshifter who practices a harmful stereotype of selfcest. It feels like being ridiculed.
Who worked on it? There is no confirmation if any genderfluid people were consulted. However I think if enough research is done one can still have a positive portrayal. Al Ewing, the writer for Agent of Asgard, (the now cancelled 2019 comic) is a cis bisexual man but did amazing work representing Loki as genderfluid. The God Who Fell to Earth (also cancelled after only 5 issues) by Daniel Kibblesmith did a decent job casually ingraining it into Loki’s character.
Michael seemed to view it as if all criticisms were ship war related. Saying season 2 will not fall into fan service and will “subvert” fan expectations.
Trauma erasure:
Loki’s trauma was not once mentioned. Ignoring the troubles he’s gone through that shaped and changed him. This was an opportunity to address his life of being beaten down, and seen as a failure. Yet it was instead portrayed as Loki is just a bad person and that’s why he loses. It’s pushed that he is “narcissistic” the head writer and show runner even saying Loki is “an ass” as opposed to troubled And scarred.
a really great article discussing the effect of Loki’s hidden identity https://href.li/?https://medium.com/ap-marvel/the-tragedy-of-loki-of-asgard-is-the-unaddressed-trauma-of-adoption-2ad132a848e2
Loki is often described as a narcissist however it is a common mistake. Loki uses a confident mask to cover his internalized self hatred. Loki is a great character to break down and examine what makes him bad. For this we are gonna talk about strictly the MCU and start back at Thor 1. In a scene of Loki and Thor as kids we see Odin telling a tale of how he slaughtered the frost giants, and took their source of power away. Loki is raised to believe Jotunn are evil, barbaric monsters. When he finds out he’s an adopted frost giant, his world comes crashing down. Odin admits he only took Loki because he thought as the heir to Laufey, he could one day Unite the kingdoms. It was a political ploy, adopting the son of his enemy out of advantage and not empathy. Loki is neglected his entire life, being told he isn’t good enough. In https://href.li/?https://youtu.be/P23aKF-694k it is shown how much he actually supported his brother despite being somewhat rivals and jealous of his brother being the favorite. When Loki tries to stand up for Thor after Odin banishes him, Odin silences Loki without any consideration. When Loki finds out he’s a frost giant, he tries to prove his loyalty by killing his birth father in front of the sleeping yet aware Odin. Showing he’d protect his adopted father rather, than his blood father. Trying to emphasize his loyalty to asgard and not jotunnheim. Loki may be the god of tricks, but not always the god of evil. In the What If: the Party Thor episode, we see if Loki was raised comfortable with his identity, and raised with love, he is carefree and mischievous but not evil. At the end of Thor 1 Loki tells Odin everything he’s done was to prove he’s worthy of the same love as Thor, and is devoted to him. When Odin denies this of Loki, he lets go and disappears into the blackhole thinking it would kill him. In the avengers Thor said he thought Loki was dead meaning that was his ultimate intention. Loki’s entire world was ripped from him and when he tries to prove he’s a dedicated and loyal son his father denies him. Watching him there as Loki let’s go in effort to kill himself. Tom discusses what happens to Loki (synopsis https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenrant.com/loki-thor-movie-death-after-where-what-happened/amp/ panel video https://href.li/?https://youtu.be/5TTzKXMfb8Q
A broken Loki, who has been floating with his on mind, is found by Thanos and tortured. Many scenes with Loki are cut as they make the viewer empathize too much with him (avengers deleted scenes https://href.li/?https://youtu.be/9m3NpkeTOmk Loki is being controlled by Thanos and the mindstone. When he’s first teleported to earth in front of Nick Fury he looks extremely sickly and deranged. Though this was never outright confirmed he was controlled there’s plenty of evidence to back it up. (Short list https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.esquire.com%2Fentertainment%2Fmovies%2Fa25693581%2Fthanos-loki-scepter-fan-theory%2F&t=YWEyYjZkNDc5NzM0ZjllNjYxMTc3YTIyNjk5ZDQ5NGJkOWU4MGUyMCwwYzhkNzgxN2FiOTQxODdlNzE1NzcxNTExMDg3Y2NhZTcyOWE3YTlk&ts=1634033270
“In relation to Loki was just, it was just bad parenting. Lots of the reasons why he is who he is it’s ‘cause he’s being unloved and undervalued. He doesn’t belong anywhere. He’s been betrayed he’s been lied to.” - Tom Hiddleston
The Loki we seen in the TVA though a variant, is still the 2012 Loki pulled from the sacred timeline. This would be the most unloved, unhinged, bitter and afraid version of Loki. Yet He isn’t scarred, or wary. He’s not particularly angry or sly. Remember this Loki just ripped an eye out, killed 80 in two days and got whipped around by the Hulk. Then brought into a strange new world where he can’t use magic for the first time. He’s stripped naked despite his lack of compliance and yet is “cooperative” with the authority figure in threat of death. Loki has never had an authority figure in his life that hasn’t mistreated him.
We don’t get an explanation of why he acts the way he does. Not once do we explore his frost giant heritage, how he grew up unloved, how he attempted to end his life only to be kidnapped by Thanos. Loki most likely was predisposed to a bit of bad but lead writer and show runner Michael Waldron comments “Loki is an ass, and that makes my life as a writer, easy.” (Source:https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/movieweb.com/amp/loki-mcu-cameos/ Loki often displays angry outbursts, hard time maintaining close relationships, as well as immense guilt. These are very common results in a person who has been abused (source: https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mayoclinic.org%2Fdiseases-conditions%2Fpost-traumatic-stress-disorder%2Fsymptoms-causes%2Fsyc-20355967&t=NDQ0MGFkMGIyNjJmYmUyZWQzOTRlMjMzOTM4MzdhMmI2ZDg5ZjkwNixiNjUwYTAzMjUwYzU1OTk0MmVhN2IwMDhiODRhY2M3ZjMwZGZkNzA2&ts=1634034471and https://href.li/?https://www.helpguide.org/articles/ptsd-trauma/coping-with-emotional-and-psychological-trauma.htm his suffering does not excuse his actions but does give more explanation that him being “an ass” Loki is put in a time loop where he is repeatedly kicked until on his knees submissive under the guise of “comedy” being beaten into compliance. After all this time being kicked down now is when he changes, breaking his will? Sylvie also often tries to hit Loki, and degrades him saying she’s the ”superior Loki” despite him growing up second his whole life. yet his relationship with her is “self acceptance” (source: https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.marvel.com/amp/articles/tv-shows/loki-sylvie-in-love Tom Hiddleston comments “I don't think Loki's relationship with himself has been very healthy. Trying to accept those aspects of himself, which he's been on the run from, was a way of thinking about that in a really interesting way “ the director Kate Heron also comments “The whole show is about identity. It's about him, and he is on a very different path, and he is on a different journey. He sees things in Sylvie that he is like, ‘Oh, I've been there. I know what you feel.’” She claims it’s on identity however we don’t see anything addressing his behavior. (Same https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.marvel.com/amp/articles/tv-shows/loki-sylvie-in-love I find it unlikely that would take his most hated traits in himself, and love them. Loki hates himself, he isn’t a true narcissist and yet he’s healed in “self love” (Source:https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenrant.com/loki-sylvie-love-not-narcissism-self-loathing-duality/amp/
Many people who have endured abuse such as myself see their self in Loki. In the way he tries to mask his pain and seem collected often arrogant to cover how broken and alone he feels. Being constantly beaten down and having to take it and push through. Be strong because it’s the only thing you know how to do. While in Thor 1 there is scene of Loki aiding the escape of the warriors 3 and lady sif while Thor is fighting out of anger and ego. Loki tries to talk Thor out of fighting more than once and alerts Odin to Thors actions of bloodshed and treaty breaking. He is diplomatic and protective. Loki post avengers is much more full of cowardice and disappears when he is expecting something bad to happen, and I believe this is an escape mechanism post Thanos. Not wanting to endure the pain of reality. A short evaluation of Loki’s abuse ( https://href.li/?https://www.grunge.com/280328/tragic-details-about-marvels-loki/ ) shows the many aspects of him that were ignored and written away in the Loki series. Simply becoming “healed” and peppy after the intervention of Mobius where he is beaten down again and again. this wouldn’t cause sudden healing and would honestly make things much worse. Loki isn’t shown breaking or at rock bottom, similar how we saw him in TDW. His behavior “fixed” in a dehumanizing way like a dog in a shock collar. Loki is not ready for a relationship or quite ready for self love. This was not a display of character development but that ignoring Loki’s history and why he is the way he is. Most of what Loki does are learned behaviors. We often see Loki being humiliated for the sake of other characters or viewers enjoyment. Loki is driven by his trauma, it shapes the very being of who you are.
Finding yourself in love wasn’t a good portrayal. This is a negative depiction of self healing, as falling in love isn’t going to heal you. This is a stereotype often portrayed in media. For a long time I thought I could be saved if I fell in love, if someone loved me for me. However that was not the case at all. It took years of therapy and looking into myself. Addressing the trauma that shaped my childhood. being further abused does not fix your behavior, if changed at all you’re numb. yet Loki seems jovial.
Sophia comments on the kiss “fixing ” Loki “[Loki] says something really nice to her before they kiss. Loki basically says, ‘I’ve always hurt everyone I’ve always been close to. I’m a horrible person, but you’ve changed me because I care about you, and I want you to be OK.’ And for someone to say, ‘I want you to be OK,’ it’s such a nice thing to hear, especially for someone who’s damaged as Sylvie.” Sophia Di Martino, Sylvie’s actor even commented on how Sylvie lived a “harder life” saying Sylvie’s different from Lokis behavior “I didn't want to make Sylvie too posh, she hasn't had an easy life. She hasn't grown up as a princess, like Loki had grown up as a prince - she's had a very different experience. I wanted to keep her really grounded.” Trauma is not a contest and Sylvie being on the run, is not comparable to Lokis abuse for over 1000 years. In the first movie being the perfect diplomatic, collected, and educated prince but still never being enough for his father. (Source https://href.li/?https://www.leftlion.co.uk/read/2021/august/loki-star-sophia-di-martino-on-joining-the-marvel-universe/ )
It’s hard to believe after all this, being beaten around and watching a short video on his life’s failures, Loki no longer possess the same mannerisms. Mobius goes as far as to blame Loki for his mother’s death, despite his intention of sending the intruders to Thor, who could very much handle them. Frigga being the only person who ever showed love to Loki. There’s no way Loki would know his mother would be there. Mobius also insults Loki trying to break him down. Kate Herron comments on Sylvies behavior vs Loki’s change “She hasn't had the Mobius therapy session. She even says, in Episode Five, "I don't know how to do this. I don't have friends." (source: https://href.li/?https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a37050778/kate-herron-loki-finale-season-2-interview/ she also commented “He's on a very different path, and he's obviously done a lot of self-reflection and self-healing, his therapy with Mobius. Sylvie hasn't had” (source https://href.li/?https://www.google.com/amp/s/collider.com/loki-kate-herron-director-interview-season-1-finale/amp/ ) now I’m not sure about Kates therapist, but that’s unlike any therapy I’ve ever had. This was not character development. Its not uncommon for victoms of abuse to end up in a relationship with an abuser because it’s familiar. However this would’ve be immensely atypical for Loki as he displays need for praise and reinforcement. Although unpopular Thor 2 had excellent character development for Loki.
Loki is sent to prison without any contact with his mother. She vouched for him, when Odin wanted him put to death. Odin says Loki’s birth right was to die. Gaslighting him. Reminder than Loki’s actions were under the control of Thanos. In TDW When a chained Loki is presented to Odin, Loki requests to be executed rather than spent the next 4000 years alone with his thoughts, and without contact with his mother. Yet he is not given trial. Loki has been to war, but in Thor 1 he does not display the murderous drive to rule, as he does mind controlled in the avengers. Though this scene ( https://href.li/?https://youtu.be/u_iOTgLoru0 )was never finished. We see Loki is living in a hellish reality. He is not allowed to attend his mother funeral, and creates an illusion so you cannot see him distraught on the floor. Unkept and room a mess (which is a very different look for him) when Thor visits him for the first time Loki asks if Frigga was in pain, but is shut down. Loki agrees to help Thor for the sake of vengeance for his mother. We see him take heroic moments out of his own will. (Which continue is Ragnarok despite the more comedic depiction of him)
In Ragnarok Loki leaves Odin in a geriatric home rather than kill him, yet Thor blames Loki for his death. Loki says he never meant for it to happen and in Odins final words, he gaslights Loki again saying he loved him despite Odins previously display of cruelty, to his adopted son. earlier saying he should’ve left him to die. Now saying he loved him.
“You weren’t born to be king, Loki. You were born to cause pain and suffering and death. That’s how it is, that’s how it was, that’s how it will be” -Mobius in Wandavision we see excellent character development of Wanda coming to terms with her grief, acknowledging the pain she feels yet isn’t ready to address it. I feel Loki was not given the same exploration of character.
Out of character:
In the series titled “Loki” it felt like anyone but. Loki is brought into the TVA with no magic. However even lacking magic Loki is a god. He, like Thor, has super strength, faster healing capabilities (bullets even bounce off him), superior endurance and is incredibly witty. Yet he is easily man handled by few TVA agents, when it took several avengers beating on him to subdue him. This is the same 2012 Loki. If shown a quick video and beat around (and definitely wouldn’t be on his knees) Loki would not become suddenly willing to change. His characters nature would be to shut off and shut down. Becomes irritable and closed instead. Even with “character development” we see in Thor The Dark World, Thor Ragnarok, and several of the recent comic books: even when good, Loki is still ultimately the trickster god. However there was a surprising lack of tricks in the series. We see Loki humiliated and tortured. Loki is defiant with a will of fire, that through all his troubles has never flickered. Yet in the series it is extinguished completely, and he follows the path set for him. He acts “silly” without retaining any purpose, wit, or intelligence. He follows after Sylvie like a lost kitten. Lacking any critical thinking Loki’s idea was to stab Aloith, who is essentially a cloud. Loki has progressively become underpowered and dumbed down, the punching bag for the sake of comedy. However the nerf he took in the series was critical. Loki is unable to do any of the magic previously established in the MCU. Strictly referring to his Seidr, he is on level with Wanda Maximoff and above Amora the Enchantress. Even surpassing Steven Strange in the comics. In the MCU he feels unable to keep up with even the crocodile. Only able to create firework or dry himself off…This brings us to our next issue…
Plot hole list:
These are plot holes and inconsistencies based on the previously established mcu world and not comics since we could go on forever about Nerco god and sorcerer supreme Loki.
Magic: Loki is unable to enchant in the series yet we see him enchant Valkeryie in Ragnarok. Marvels official bio of MCU Loki says “Loki possesses strength, durability, and longevity far superior to humans. The most powerful sorcerer in all of Asgard, Loki's magical abilities include astral projection, shape-shifting, hypnosis, molecular rearrangement, energy blasts, levitating, conjuration, cryokinesis, telekinesis and teleportation” (mind you this isn’t even comic Loki) He’s seen tipsy (which would take a massive amount of alcohol, remember Thor brings his own) and unable to produce magic other than fireworks. It’s unlikely Sylvie would be able to teach Loki anything new. Loki was formally trained in magic in his 1000+ years of study in Asgard. Where were his magical capabilities?
Combat skills: Loki is over 1000 years old. Raised in a warrior culture. The MCU bio says “A highly-tactical thinker, Loki is able to manipulate opportunities and events in his favor; his cunning mind far exceeding Thor and Odin's. Loki, an expert combatant, typically wields throwing knives and other small blades.” We also see him take on Thor with a staff to a draw. Without magic Asgardians still have Super Strength, advanced durability, faster healing regeneration and extended life span. He was able to be minimally injured after beaten by the hulk and knocked around by the avengers. However he was contained and overpowered by a small number of TVA agents. Loki has gone into battle and war alongside Thor. Even without magic he is a force to be reckoned with. Catching an arrow without even looking due to his high natural senses. Loki can touch the infinity stones while humans and most species cannot. We see bullets bounce off him. But suddenly is incompetent, resorting to throwing a vacuum at Sylvie possessing a human. Getting knocked to the ground.
Frost Giant: since there is no magic in the TVA many wondered how it was possible that Loki didn’t revert to his frost giant form. The explanation given by the team was that Odins magic was permanently altering, however that can’t be true if he turns blue when touching the casket. Also he was “cold” in the void with Sylvie. And we never even talked about him being a Jotunn
Lokis Allspeak: Loki acts confused in the first episode when he arrives in Mongolia and doesn’t know what the people are saying. As a god he has Allspeak. We can assume it exists in mcu because the people in Germany and Pompeii understand him. He also speaks English and old Norse. In GOTG most people have implanted translators, but Thor and Loki don’t need them to understand the alien races. In GOTG Quill doesn’t have universal translator just a general one, so he is unable to speak Sakaaran, yet Thor and Loki understand the language. I don’t believe Hulk speaks to anyone on Sakaar other than Valkyrie who also has Allspeak. Thor is one of the few who understands Groot, Thor makes a joke that he “took the language as an elective” however director James Gunn says it was merely a joke and he was able to understand it due to his godly abilities. How did Loki sing an “Asgardian” song without the entire thing coming out as English?
Alphabet: Although Asgardian language has Allspeak it’s writing is not. Loki signs his name with Latin letters when it should be in Norse runes. We see runes appear in Wandavision and so Loki should sign his name as ᛚᚢᚴᛁ.
I’m ignoring the sacred timeline and destiny is prewritten issues because I don’t have the energy…These are less of plot holes and more unexplained patches
Sylvie Pruned: Sylvie says she was pruned before Loki was even born. I assume she means her timeline, but timelines are reset and not erased. If she is the only “female variant” and that’s why caused her to be arrested by the TVA, why did they simply not get her at birth?
Sylvie’s Horns: ceremonially on a helm different symbols represent different achievements. Wings (Thor) mean royalty who has mastered battle. the uru horns (Loki) means Royal master of magic. Odins helmet has both. So we can assume Sylvie stole hers, since she wasn’t old enough to hone her Seidr. Did she steal them from Agent of Asgard Loki?
Laevateinn: (not to be mistaken with Gram the sword of Truth or the Twilight Sword) Loki’s sword than can be summoned to him. The sword can be used to channel magic through it. It can cut through anything except Mjolnir. (CBR has a good summary of how underwhelming the introduction of the blade was)
Amora the Enchantress: in Agents of Shield, Lorelei, Amora’s sister if featured. This implies Amora exists as well. however Amora was used as an inspiration for Sylvie and is likely not to be seen. Sylvie Laufeydottir becoming the Enchantress would contradict her as well as the comics. Sylvie Lushton being banished and never seen again after using Amoras title to gain attention. Amora adding “there is only one enchantress Sylvie Lushton” if there is a Sylvie and a Lorelei, where is Amora?
Timeline bombing: what happened after the bombing of the time line? Why did that have no effect?
Poor Writing:
This I won’t go in depth on as there are many explanation videos and film blogs who have addressed this…
Such as a short article here https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2021/06/08/loki-review-disney-disappoints-in-latest-mcu-live-action-series/?sh=5c32dd934f43 and a really excellent twitter thread (yes I know not a “reputable” source) by a film major here https://twitter.com/DIOLESBIAN/status/1416408887889211392?s=20
The overall writing felt messy. It jumped around too quickly without developing any real storyline, yet somehow also felt very slow (such as Kangs 20 min monologue.) Though excessive dialogue isn’t a bad thing, it breaks “Show, don't tell.” Something any writer or filmmaker is familiar with. It’s good to break norms, but it didn’t feel purposeful. The multiverse was interesting story to introduce and can be a confusing topic to write but felt generally, lack luster. I know we weren’t expecting Spielberg level cinema, but the writing lacked depth of character or nuance.
It is not a good sign when the show runner misspeaks and says it’s Odin who killed Laufey. While that happened in the original Thor comics, it has been retconned since the first Thor movie, as well as several times in the comics.
Though they may be looking too far into it. Many fans on social media even accuse Michael original script of being very similar to the Loki series.
Michael Waldron original script: (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/menwritingwomen/comments/owqap4/i_fear_for_wanda_maximoff/ similar to Sylvie being the “superior Loki” the characters in the script around the main character are brought down to lift her up in comparison. Rather that have her own equal achievements.
The out of characterness of Loki was not “character development.” If it was it wouldn’t feel..out of character. This isn’t fault of any of the actors, they can only do as well as the writing gives them.
We were all sold the idea of following to god of mischief influencing moments in time, yet this wasn’t what the series was about at all.
The trailers even containing clips that weren’t in the show. Even the show itself not feeling like it was about Loki. Fans were baited with the allure of an old character, finally getting the sun to shine on him…
This petition is asking for these aspects to be addressed and retconned in the next season, movies, or at the very least commented on. Marvel and Disney must be aware by now. Fans have written criticisms since the beginning of time. It was fans who convinced Sherlock Holes writer Sir Arthur Conan Doyle to revive his main character and continue the series. Fans are the consumers, and while casual fans make up the majority, they come and go. Veteran fans often are generational, purchase merch consistently, and share with their children, as my parents and so many others have. MCU fans alone have loved this character for over a decade. Our criticisms are valid (even if you think we are just whiny fanboys)
Thank you for reading
The Decision Makers
Petition Updates
Share this petition
Petition created on October 15, 2021