What was Sarkozy's involvement? Interview with lawyer Emmanuel Marsigny
May 3, 2018 — Below is the interview transcript with Emmanuel Marsigny, Tariq Ramadan’s lawyer speaking to channel Europe 1.
Maître Marsigny s’interroge sur « la loyauté des services de police qui ont notamment dissimulé dans des scellés des éléments à décharge pour Monsieur Ramadan ».
Europe 1 Radio, it is 7:18 am, I’m Patrick Cohen and we are now with Tariq Ramadan's lawyer
- Good morning Emmanuel Marsigny
- First, what is the outcome of the request for release that you made for your client Tariq Ramadan?
For the time being it has still not been ruled on. We are awaiting the decision from the juge des libertés et de la détention (examining magistrate) sometime soon. The prosecution and the investigating magistrates have opposed this request.
- For which reasons?
Look, the reasons are extremely numerous, but beyond these motives...
- Are they the same as before "risk of pressure on the witnesses, risk of fleeing abroad, risk of disturbing public order"?
Yes, with a motivation that is absolutely mind-blowing, and what I want to denounce this morning here.
- Why mind-blowing?
Mr. Ramadan has not been treated fairly. His case has not been heard fairly, and the presumption of innocence has been flouted.
The evidentiary elements gathered since the beginning of this case show that the first two complainants lied. Ms. Ayari, who complained on television not to have been helped by the republic, described a hotel room that does not match, and lied to police officers saying she had ceased all contact with Mr. Ramadan since 2012. All this proved to be inaccurate and even her own witnesses declared that she was a mythomaniac.
As for Christelle, recent elements were added to the file, which makes me wonder about the police services’ loyalty. They have hidden in sealed documents exculpatory material in favour of Mr. Ramadan which have just been added to the file, which motivated this release request. The magistrates have not said a word.
- What type of exculpatory material?
For example, we found emails that date from the days following the alleged rape that she filed a complaint about. She tells a totally different version of what she is now recounting to the police. The police officers had these elements and did not even interrogate her about this. Even the investigating magistrates who heard her at length did not interrogate her about this. Plus, she provided a photo that was supposedly taken the day after the event which was supposed to display traces of the violence she endured. This photo was not even printed, it was then done at my request, and it shows nothing. Moreover, in 2010 she said she was under pressure from the Renseignements Généraux [French Secret Services] and that the President of the Republic [Nicolas Sarkozy] was ready to pay for the best lawyer in France to file a complaint against Mr. Ramadan because he wanted to take Mr. Ramadan down. It is not the defense that is saying this. She wrote it. So, either this matter is a state affair, and if so, it needs investigating immediately, or her mental health should be put in question.
- We have the third complainant, "Marie" who provided proofs of many exchanges, hundreds of explicit messages over several months. What does Tariq Ramadan admit about his relationship with this woman?
Mr. Ramadan knows Mounia the Carlton affair girl, he has never contested that fact, and he has never been interrogated on the subject before. He had a relationship with her, which is not the relationship she describes. He will be heard on June 5, as we learned very recently by the investigating magistrates, and he will then have the opportunity to explain himself. I received at my office..
- A relationship of what kind?
He will describe that relationship to the investigating magistrates. And even though this relationship could be sexual in nature, since that is what journalists are interested in...
- Not that we are interested in, but that is what he has always challenged…he challenged any extramarital relationship.
Mr. Ramadan is not jailed for an extramarital affair. And if tomorrow we must put in jail, though there is a presumption of innocence, everyone who has had extramarital relationships, Mr. Cohen, believe me it will be necessary to build a very large number of prisons, and the streets of the 8th arrondissement and other boroughs will be deserted within a few minutes.
- It is still a change of defense strategy; there has been a change of lawyer and a change of defense.
This is not a defense strategy. Mr. Ramadan has never contested any text relationships with a number of women…Mr. Ramadan challenges the alleged rape he is accused of. He has never been interrogated about this Mounia, and when he will be, he will explain himself. This is not a change of defense strategy, this is a false controversy, it is simply a matter of explaining at the right moment when necessary. When he was placed in custody, Mounia hadn’t yet filed a complaint. I remind you, however, Mounia was on this same radio program [Europe1 radio] and said she described to the police what had happened to her, namely to having been raped nine times over the span of several months, and she said, "When I said that, I was told it was rape." So is she the one who is saying it? Is it what really happened? Or is it what some would like to have happened?
Mr. Ramadan generates a lot of animosity and a lot of people today would like to think that he is guilty of what he is accused of.
- Well I will not go into the file, you have it, I do not have it, but the false controversy that you denounce this morning Me Marsigny is still a change that has impacted support for Tariq Ramadan. It was seen on social media and it also impacted the fundraising to finance his defence.
Listen, I'm a criminal lawyer, my case is the law, the presumption of innocence and the facts, what happens outside is not my business.
- You are in contact with Tariq Ramadan’s supporters.
That's what you say.
- No, isn’t that true?
That's what you say. I have only one interlocutor: Mr. Tariq Ramadan.
- Tariq Ramadan will explain himself again before the judge, is it planned that he will be heard again?
He has been summoned to appear on June 5th. He is impatient to be heard and to explain himself in a calm and serene way, and what he wishes for especially is that his case can be finally heard equitably and that everybody stops talking nonsense, including on the judicial side where absurdities are being said. Because now he is being presumed guilty, and that is something that we must strongly denounce, whether the accused is an Arab or Muslim. Christelle writes in her emails that “all Arabs are in a hurry to kick their wives and betray them, and it's normal.”
- This convergence of accusations, three complaints in France, one in the United States, one in Switzerland, is it a conspiracy?In your opinion Emmanuel Marsigny, who is feeding these accusations? You talked about a state affair just now?
Well I don’t know, it is necessary to question the people who are connected with the President of the Republic aiming to bring Mr. Ramadan down! Either this Christelle is completely deranged and then we must question the credibility of her accusations, or we must question the Renseignements Généraux [French Secret Services]. Christelle says that she had four tax audits, her bank accounts were blocked because Caroline Fourest had sent her the Secret Services in order to push her to file a complaint against Mr. Ramadan and when she did not comply, she was starved in order to do so! She must be interrogated; it is not for me to answer on her behalf.
- In your opinion will everything collapse?
Well I don’t know. Who can say? I am simply saying that as things stand, we must give sufficient time and let the investigation proceed, and let Mr. Ramadan defend himself by benefiting from the presumption of innocence. It is a cardinal point of our legal system.
- Thank you Emmanuel Marsigny, Tariq Ramadan's lawyer, live on Europe 1 radio.
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