**PLEASE NOTE** Our comments on the other petition's posts and any from their supporters posts are correct at the time of writing - their information may or may not be changed which could impact on the relevance and accuracy of what we post but this is outwith our control - we do not have the capacity to keep checking their posts for changes*
Hi all
Thankyou to everyone supporting us and the people we are fighting for!
We shared some very positive news on Tuesday - the council update on the matter - but we're not out of the woods yet as councillors still have to discuss the matter.
It's only 7 days until councillors will discuss rules in cemeteries including dog rules. Remember you can have your say. Please see the end of this post for other ways to get involved.
You can email us at: cemeteries4all@yahoo.com
We are still busy working on both our written and spoken deputations so updates may be less but be assured we are still working hard to keep cemetries4all respectful responsible users.
On Tuesday we shared the council's (Bereavement Services) update report in relation to dogs in cemeteries, they clearly stated:
"Whilst there are some issues, there is an insufficient evidence base to conclude that it would be
proportionate to further tighten the rules. Further, to enforce a ‘no dog’ rule would require a
significant increase in officer resources."
You can find this update report and related graphs in this document (if you search within the document for 'cemetery' it makes it much easier as it's a long document):
Yesterday we discussed that although the council may state this based on 12 weeks and 203 hours of impartial observations the decision is still up to councillors who we feel would have to seriously explain themselves to their voters if they went against council advice and introduced a disproportionate ban on dogs. We hope it is unlikely they would do so but you never know.
We also stated we were a little concerned the other petition had not posted on this as it's not like them not to post when such big evidence has been shared - we initially thought they would dispute this information not ignore it.
We are happy to report they seem OK and although we're not surprised we are disappointed they dispute this impartial evidence from an official source collected in a much more representative fashion than the other petition appear to collect their evidence.
On their Facebook group they state:
"A "12 week" survey by Bereavement Services supposedly covering "203 hours" of statistic gathering of dogs in Edinburgh Cemeteries, which comes to the conclusion that "there is an insufficient evidence base to conclude that it would be proportionate to further tighten the rules. Further, to enforce a "no dog" rule would require a significant
increase in officer resources"
We have a lot to say about this...soon..."
And
"But for now, have a look at these words and figures and let us know your thoughts. Apparently, only 17 out of the 43 Edinburgh cemeteries had a dog spotted in them over a whole three month period. Cemeteries that had absolutely no dogs spotted include Dalmeny, Duddingston, Kirkliston, Mortonhall (thought that was "no dogs" anyway?) Portobello and Ratho...not a single dog...in three months."
Quite honestly folks we are dumbfounded. The other petition has thus far focussed on Warriston and Morningside cemetery with very biased (in our opinion) data collection amd they don't accept the impartial, professional data collection from the council themselves?
The council have reported on 17 cemeteries, 15 more than the other petition appear to have stated thus far - is a sample of 2 really more representative of 43 cemeteries than a sample of 17?
We personally find it acceptable that the council may not have seen dogs in the cemeteries they noted as having no dogs as we ourselves rarely saw any dogs when we were able to visit our grandad in Morningside (we can no longer visit due to anxiety ofnthe behaviours there but more on this in another post) - a cemetery the other petition say is overun with dogs. We can actually think of at least 4 other cemeteries we have never seen a dog in.
Are the other petition really more knowledgable than the council on cemeteries? Do they really have a less biased more representative data set of behaviours in our council cemeteries?
In the past we have discussed some pointers on measuring whether information is factual - one of these is to consider what the person has to gain by lying or misleading you with information. In our humble opinion the council have nothing to gain by lying they are merely fact reporting- they are impartial in this discussion. What would the other petition gain by lying, misleading and discrediting impartial more representative data? We'll let you think about that.
"We have a lot to say about this...soon..." - We look forward to hearing this and hope it is factual, impartial and representative.
Perhaps you could accompany the information with an apology and acknowledgement that trial rules do not exist in Morningside cemetery, that you have falsely accused people of breaking the rules, that you have withheld information from the public and your supporters and news that you will take down photos where you incorrectly cite people as breaking the rules.
We would like to be clear and state we have never tried to join their group or asked anyone to do so. If people choose to join their group and share information that is up to them. We know that the other petiton has withheld information or posted misleading information in the past and we want to ensure everyone sees what the other petition say - including thier supporters.
Remember there's still time to show your support not to have a ban by writing to your local councillors and writing to councillors on the rule deciding board or even sharing this petition again.
We advocate for respectful, responsible cemetery use by all and education for the minority not following rules. Below are some of our concerns in relation to a ban on dogs (with or without exemptions).
- Mourners who may be disadvantaged by any form of ban on dogs and not able to grieve as is helpful to them.
- The deceased resting in our cemeteries who may have loved dogs in life and like to see them in death
- There are many socially accepted reasons one might visit a cemetery why should somone miss out on this because they have a well behaved dog on lead causing no issues
- Women and vunerable groups state they feel safer with a dog in a cemetery - should be take away their safety net? Remember they may be a mourner
- People with dogs can and do help in cemeteries
- The footfall of dogs may offer cemetery inhabitants and visitors protection from unwanted or illegal behaviour
- The no dogs rule pre covid was not enforced or adhered to in at least 2 cemeteries (all if you believe some council officials) - what would this rule actually to do improve the behaviours of the minority of rule breakers?
- If a ban was brought in but not enforced by the coincil would this lead to individuals self policing cemeteries possibly incorrectly and inappropriately?
- Is it porportionate and just to remove a rule abiding majority for a minority of rule breakers in a minority of cemeteries
- The list of aspects could go on but we feel that is enough to demonstrate how complicated this matter truely is.
Let's keep cemetries4all responsible, respectful people!
Official current cemetery rules:
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/33467/cemetery-management-rules
Other ways to get involved and share your view:
Write to your local councillor - List of your local Councillors:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0
Write to committe members who will discuss and decide on cemetery rules - List of who is due to be at the committee meeting including committee members:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMeetingAttendance.aspx?ID=7281
Consider giving a written or verbal deputation - Website where further information will be posted in relation to the meetings, we understand around a week before the meeting:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=139&MId=7281
Vote on the Scotsman's article where you can place your vote (it is not binding in any way):
https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/why-council-will-vote-on-a-ban-dogs-from-all-edinburgh-cemeteries-4679251?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1jiu0nmOB5KkeddVY_d0oDN6U2gt09cUrdWgBgQNW9Nr0N14p8EnUv3gs_aem_n3NYnWSu9Bpe_wP_x0twLw#disqus-comment-section