*PLEASE NOTE** Our comments on the other petition's posts and any from their supporters posts are correct at the time of writing - their information may or may not be changed which could impact on the relevance and accuracy of what we post but this is outwith our control - we do not have the capacity to keep checking their posts for changes*
Hi all
Thankyou to everyone supporting us and the people we are fighting for!
Today we have some positive news - though we're not counting our chickens until they are hatched. Keep reading for more on that!
It's not long until 8th August - 9 days - when the council will discuss rules in cemeteries including dog rules. Remember you can have your say. Please see the end of this post for other ways to get involved.
You can email us at: cemeteries4all@yahoo.com
Apologies for no post yesterday - we were preparing for something important happening this evening. All will be revealed soon.
We are also busy working on both our written and spoken deputations so updates may be less but be assured we are still working hard to keep cemetries4all respectful responsible users.
The last couple of days the other petition has shared with us photos with dogs off lead in Morningside and Warriston cemeteries. Whilst we do not approve of such photos (discussed in previous posts, we're still following this up) we do acknowledge them, just as we have always acknowledged there are some people who break rules in our council cemeteries - a minority.
We would like to point out there are many issues when considering photographs as evidence such as bias and representativeness.
Some of us at the counter petition are mourners ourselves, others may be people who need or choose to use the unique space of a cemetery respectfully and responsibly for many socially accepted reasons.
We all want to improve the above minority behaviours and other behaviours in our 43 council cemeteries for the cemetery's inhabitants and visitors but we want to do so in a porportionate, fair manner that does not exclude rule abiding people who may need or choose to use this space.
Why are we calling them a minority of rules breakers - because that's what evidence appears to show.
We have our own information to share on the 8th August but you can see from the graph shared today that although there are some dogs off lead in council cemeteries it is nowhere near a majority - especially in Morningside cemetery one of the main cemeteries discussed.
As we aacknowledged Warriston cemetery definitely does seem to have an issue as, surprisingly, does East Preston Street.
The graph was derived from information collected by council officers during 203 hours of observations in 17 Council cemeteries.
You can find the graph in this document:
In this document the council state:
"The observations carried out by officers demonstrate that there are a number of cemeteries where
owners walk their dogs. However, the majority of dog owners use cemetery spaces in a respectful
manner. Where dog owners are observed with their dog off-lead, they are asked to adhere to the
Cemetery Management Rules’ and they generally comply with this request.
Officers have identified that at Warriston and East Preston Street Cemeteries there appears to be
less adherence to this rule, with certain individuals repeatedly letting their dogs off lead and
becoming challenging when spoken to by officers. These individuals will be asked in the coming
weeks not to return.
Committee requested consideration of enforcing a ‘no dogs’ requirement in cemeteries.
Whilst there are some issues, there is an insufficient evidence base to conclude that it would be
proportionate to further tighten the rules. Further, to enforce a ‘no dog’ rule would require a
significant increase in officer resources."
These figures appear to be from May so they may have more data to share on the 8th August.
Don't know about you but we would find it particularly alarming if the comittee went against council evidence and advice and would wonder how on earth they would explain this and find the required resources for a ban if they decided to plow ahead with one.
Despite the fact the other petition like to quote from council documents themselves we suspect they may try to deny this impartial evidence but what else can be said - that's what the council themselves say:
"...there is an insufficient evidence base to conclude that it would be
proportionate to further tighten the rules..."
Final words for today
Yet again the other petition fails to acknowledge or apologise to their supporters and the public in general for not only consistently misleading (lying to??) them on aspects relating to non-existent trials rules and related false accusations and photographs but also withholding information and possibly misleading them the from the start - rule breakers are not a majority as the other petition has been claiming. It has now been 4 weeks (update 4th July) since we first stated there were no trial rules in Morningside and they have thus far continued to deny this.
If you want to support a petition you can trust to tell the truth and be open and honest with you whilst trying to improve problematic behaviours in all our council cemeteries without excluding those who are doing no wrong - please consider supporting us.
If you want to support a petition who from day one has stated the truth - that these behaviours are in a minority and we could not afford a ban - please consider supporting us.
We advocate for respectful, responsible cemetery use by all and education for the minority not following rules.
Below are some of our concerns in relation to a ban on dogs (with or without exemptions).
- Mourners who may be disadvantaged by any form of ban on dogs and not able to grieve as is helpful to them.
- The deceased resting in our cemeteries who may have loved dogs in life and like to see them in death
- There are many socially accepted reasons one might visit a cemetery why should somone miss out on this because they have a well behaved dog on lead causing no issues
- Women and vunerable groups state they feel safer with a dog in a cemetery - should be take away their safety net? Remember they may be a mourner
- People with dogs can and do help in cemeteries
- The footfall of dogs may offer cemetery inhabitants and visitors protection from unwanted or illegal behaviour
- The no dogs rule pre covid was not enforced or adhered to in at least 2 cemeteries (all if you believe some council officials) - what would this rule actually to do improve the behaviours of the minority of rule breakers?
- If a ban was brought in but not enforced by the coincil would this lead to individuals self policing cemeteries possibly incorrectly and inappropriately?
- Is it porportionate and just to remove a rule abiding majority for a minority of rule breakers in a minority of cemeteries
- The list of aspects could go on but we feel that is enough to demonstrate how complicated this matter truely is.
Let's keep cemetries4all responsible, respectful people!
Official current cemetery rules:
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/33467/cemetery-management-rules
Other ways to get involved and share your view:
Write to your local councillor - List of your local Councillors:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0
Write to committe members who will discuss and decide on cemetery rules - List of who is due to be at the committee meeting including committee members:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMeetingAttendance.aspx?ID=7281
Consider giving a written or verbal deputation - Website where further information will be posted in relation to the meetings, we understand around a week before the meeting:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=139&MId=7281
Vote on the Scotsman's article where you can place your vote (it is not binding in any way):
https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/why-council-will-vote-on-a-ban-dogs-from-all-edinburgh-cemeteries-4679251?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1jiu0nmOB5KkeddVY_d0oDN6U2gt09cUrdWgBgQNW9Nr0N14p8EnUv3gs_aem_n3NYnWSu9Bpe_wP_x0twLw#disqus-comment-section