**PLEASE NOTE** Comments or quotes from the other petition's posts and any from their supporters posts is correct at the time of writing - their information may or may not be changed which could impact on the relevance and accuracy of what we post but this is outwith our control - we do not have the capacity to keep checking their posts for changes
Hi all
Thankyou to everyone supporting and spreading the word of this petiton.
Your support is invaluable to mourners and others who visit cemeteries with their dog and are respectful, responsible and follow current cemetery rules.
For whatever reason you support us remember you only have until 8th August (at the moment) to have your say
Remember you can email us at anytime: cemeteries4all@yahoo.com
Sorry folks, today is going to be a long one as we want to cover 3 topics:
- 1. Does more publicity mean actually mean your cause is thought of in higher esteem or just more people are seeing it?
- 2. Trial rules (again) - very short this time.
- 3. Apologies and explanation of possible unknown rule breaking by ourselves and reasons we feel any kind of ban won't work and is unjust for mourners and others.
1. Has anyone noticed the rapid increase in support for the other petition and that our petition is falling behind?
One kind supporter sent us the above image, stating it was from a flyer produced by the other petition. They also sent us many other screenshots.
Our supporter stated these screenshots were from the other petition's private facebook group where the other petition appears to they state they have not shared this flyer publicly as they don't want us to copy them and state "they steal all our ideas".
Are they being open and honest with the public if they're potentially keeping something as simple as flyers from people?
We personally would question that that we copy everything they do.
We haven't stolen their idea to exclude rule abiding people from cemeteries just because they have a well behaved dog on lead causing no issues and no harm and in may in fact these people may help our cemeteries , their inhabitants and visitors; we haven't stolen their idea to deny trial rules; we haven't stolen their idea not to fact check with officials; we haven't stolen their idea to be intrusive to cemetery visitors by photographing them; we haven't stolen their idea to set up a private facebokk group as we want to be as transparent as we can with the public; we haven't stolen their idea to have "misinformation Monday"; we haven't stolen their idea to take photos of people following rules and cited them as breaking rules; we haven't stolen their idea to post an identitying photo online of a gentleman walking along the street near the entrance to a cemetery calling him an "idiot" and stated with no proof that he let his dog sniff at "everything" walking past Xander's grave; and we haven't stolen their idea to change their petition statement or posts and not automatically acknowledge, explain and apologise for this.
We haven't stolen any ideas from them that we can see.
Yes, some of our ways may be similar at times. There are many common techniques used with petitions and when campaigning, this does not mean anyone is copying anyone, all it means is they just have similar strategies. If we have appearred to copy them then it has been a coincidence as we're sure it has for many others using similar techniques.
Andy, if this is from your group (we don't see any reason our supporter would lie) we'd like to reassure you we will not be "copying" the idea of flyers. We actually thought of the idea near the beginning of our petiton and realised it was not possible for us. Unlike yourself, we are not retired we do not have the time nor the means for flyers. So unless someone kindly helps with this "your" idea is safe.
We'd be interested to know if people who have used this technique (flyers for a petition) before you did were somehow copying you?
Just because the other petition has better publicity (from before our petition even began Paul's story was in newspapers and most people in Edinburgh know the tragedy surrounding Xander's death) doesn't necessarily mean more people agree with them - it merely means more people are aware of their petition over ours.
In all honesty if we saw their flyer we'd probably sign too as it sounds awful - "Cemeteries have a core purpose. They are primarily for
the bereaved. Large numbers of dogs off lead, and on
long leads, fouling on graves, cause upset for those
with loved ones in the cemetery." However, whether it is actually true is a different matter and people may therefore be supporting something they don't mean to.
Here's what they appear to have written in their secret facebook group about their flyers and us (we have screenshots but change.org appears to limit what visuals you can post so it's easier to copy and paste):
"No Exercising Dogs in Edinburg... Andy Lees .1h
The reason Paul and I were in "Wee Bennet's" in Morningside yesterday, is because we had just completed our second "flyering run", with this flyer.
It has a QR Code that can be scanned by any phone camera, which then opens up the web page of our petition, where more information is available, and the petition can be signed.
Our first run last week was from The Steading bar at Hillend to The Charwood Bar & Restaurant - we did not get a single refusal to display the flyer, everywhere said "yes" ..in fact some people asked for more than one flyer
Yesterday, we started at the petrol station at Greenbank, and worked our way right down both sides of Comiston Road, up one side of Morningside Road, and back down the other side, ending at Wee Bennet's for a well-deserved beer..that is where we saw that the petition had hit 2000 signatures.
Again, not one single person refused us, either because of disagreeing with our stance, or because of company policy. A couple of folks said, "Give me the flyer - 1'll have to run it by my Manager tomorrow"; which is fair enough - some places da not want to get involved in a contentious issue like this..we get it.
We have not mentioned this until now, and we won't mention it in a petition update (at least not soon) because we know "Monti Stramka" (fake name) the author of the counter petition will steal the idea (they steal all our ideas) - they will find out eventually, but we wanted to get a head start.
Paul & I will be out flyering again in the next two weeks. A few businesses were closed yesterday, so we need to visit them again, and we want to get down into Churchill and Bruntsfield.
However – you can help us.
In the comments below this post, I will put links where you can download these flyers.
There are two variants:
• A big A4 one
• One that has two on an A4 sheet (this seems the most popular)
Please print them off and use them.
If you have a business, put one up in a prominent place - take a few with you when you are out in your local area – ask people if they will put one up - explain that we are not advocating for a “total ban”, we fully support professionally trained assistance dogs and dogs with mourners.
Thanks folks."
They really don't seem to like us.
Their facebook group : No Exercising Dogs in Edinburgh Cemeteries
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1479741686087660/
2. Yet again the other petition has talked of trials rules, as stated we have had information from four officials and three meetings where officials have stated these are trial signs not trials rules - when (if ever) is the other petiton going to admit the truth.
One official stated this, we're not sure it could be any clearer:
"The Morningside one was a trial sign of the current rules - to try and explain to users that dogs running free and chasing a ball wasn’t appropriate in a cemetery – it was never a change of rules."
As stated before just because something looks one way to you does not make it so. We don't think they look anything like rules but have actually taken the effort to find out the truth from people in the know to ensure we were correct - can you and councillors trust the other petition to tell the truth on the 8th August.
3. Also one of their supporters read our petition statement and asked us about it, our statement has been the same since we posted it on January 31st 2024 (almost 6 months ago) as unlike some we haven't changed it. Have they only noticed this now?
The petition themselves have posted re this as well today:
"Does this mean the author of the counter petition is basically admitting breaking the Cemetery Management Rules for over four decades?"
To save you searching for it, here's our reply (please excuse the errors we're currenlty having major issues with Nextdoor):
"Graham in all honesty I have no idea what the rules were when I was a child and was following my grandads lead. In those days the places we went most were private and later compulsory purchased by council - Morningside I belive in 1992 although they didn'tdo much with it for a long time.
No idea when the council brought in the no dogs rule and in all honesty I don't remember it. Until 2019 if I went with a dog it was with the family dog or other family members and their dogs all of whom knew grandad would have wanted it - dogs were onlead. In 2019 I got own dog partly due to my PTSD and needed her to go anywhere, including to visit my resting family.
If this was against rules I apologise but I honestly didn't know, didn't have choice if I wanted to visit and it's what the person themselves wpuld have wanted.
My Grandad was a true gentleman with a heart of gold, he is unlikely to have gone against rules and if he did he would have seriously thought about the consequences and why the rule was there.
He purchased his parents plot and was mourning for them and if he wanted to take his granddaughter and on lead dog and no one ever told him otherwise or complained then I don't see the problem apart from possibly going against rules - as it was something important to him as a mourner which your own petition agrees with I am unsure what the issue is especially when your own petition appears to break current rules.
We are against rule breakers of the current rules as they are sensible. We are not against any form of ban on dogs in cemeteries as they will potentially exclude mourners - not everyone wants their grief intruded upon to prove why they are there.
Many other rule abiding people will be excluded which we don't think it just or helpful to cemetries."
Yes, we and our grandad may have been breaking rules.
We honestly didn't know and our grandad was a good man if he knew it's very unlikely he would have broken the rules without very very good reason and careful contemplation - such as an importance linked to mourning his parents. We apologise if we did break rules.
For us this highlights three of the issues we have with a no dog rule - with or without excemptions.
One - rules weren't enforced (if they even existed during that whole time period), if they had been enforced we'd have known we were breaking rules - no one ever told us. We know in more recent years there may have been signs but we certainly never noticed any.
We also know from the research study we have previously posted on the no dog rule in place pre covid was not followed in Warriston or Morningside cemeteries. Officials have told us it was never enforced.
Realistically, why would a new ban be followed when it clearly wasn't before - possibly even inadvertently by people like ourselves who respect rules. What will any kind of ban actually do? Should we not try something else that may work instead of something we know doesn't?
In all honesty once the PTSD started we just needed a "safe" place to go away from people and noise and cemeteries helped heal. We were not in a fit state to notice signs, we were just concentrating on trying to stay alive and get well and as cemeteries are outdoor places it made sense that my dog would be allowed especially as she was there to support me and on lead. How many other people like the old PTSD Monti need these sanctuaries of peace and quiet and need their dogs with them?
None of these are excuses, merely reasons why ourselves and many other people may have broken these rules, even inadvertently. We truely do apologise but we really didn't know.
Equally the other petition are asking for an excemption for mourners so why would they even disagree with this?
Is it just on the principle of breaking rules? We find this a bit strange when they and those linked to them appear to regularly break rule 1.1 (as discussed in previous updates).
Could it be instead of informing people of information that has been there for all to be since the start of our they are merely trying to discredit us? Who knows, again can you and councillors trust them to tell the truth on 8th August? - we'll let you decide on that.
Two - People didn't know there was a ban in place and many genuinely still don't know that dogs are required to be on lead. Should we not ensure people actually know information before judging them and potentially ban them when they might not know that what they are doing it wrong. Yes, there are signs but is that enough? We will cover this more in our deputation.
Three - people with mourners want to visit their relatives with their dogs - why should they be stopped or have to prove why they are there having their grief intruded upon?
Final words for today:
If you don’t want people like our beloved grandad to have to become rule breakers (even unknowingly) in order to mourn how they wish - please support us.
If an excemption is granted for mourners, should people like our beloved grandad have their grief intruded upon to justify why they are in a cemetrey - if your answer is no, please support us.
If you want ALL people to be able to visit cemeteries for the many socially accepted reasons they do - please support us.
If you want to support a petition wants to improve ALL behaviours in our council cemeteries and that tells the truth - even when it may make them look bad - please support us.
Let's keep cemetries4all responsible, respectful people!
Official current cemetery rules:
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/33467/cemetery-management-rules
Other ways to get involved and share your view:
Write to your local councillor - List of your local Councillors:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0
Write to committe members who will discuss and decide on cemetery rules - List of who is due to be at the committee meeting including committee members:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMeetingAttendance.aspx?ID=7281
Consider giving a written or verbal deputation - Website where further information will be posted in relation to the meetings, we understand around a week before the meeting:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=139&MId=7281
Vote on the Scotsman's article where you can place your vote (it is not binding in any way):
https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/why-council-will-vote-on-a-ban-dogs-from-all-edinburgh-cemeteries-4679251?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1jiu0nmOB5KkeddVY_d0oDN6U2gt09cUrdWgBgQNW9Nr0N14p8EnUv3gs_aem_n3NYnWSu9Bpe_wP_x0twLw#disqus-comment-section