*At the time of writing all information relating to the other petition's posts and their supporters post is correct - their information may or may not be changed which could impact on the relevance and accuracy of what we post but this is outwith our control - we do not have the capacity to keep checking their posts for changes*

Hi all

Thankyou to everyone supporting and spreading the word of this petiton.   

Your support is invaluable to mourners and others who visit cemeteries with their dog and are respectful, responsible and follow current cemetery rules.  

You may support us for a variety of different reasons but remember if we want to stop dogs from being banned in any way we need to work as hard as we can to do so before the meeting on the 8th August - see the end of this update for other ways to get involved.  

Remember you can email us at anytime:  cemeteries4all@yahoo.com   

In this update we will discuss issues re self-policing and taking of photographs we would like to remind people if they are made to feel unsafe by anyone at anytime, not just in a cemetery, that you can contact the police.

This could include a huge range of concerns, including but not limited to: if you are approached by a stranger, followed, shouted at, have your photo taken without permission. It doesn't matter how big or small you feel the issue is - if you feel unsafe, you have the right to feel safe and report this. It will be taken seriously and in confidence and police will have time for you.

• If requiring an emergency response and/or you feel you are in immediate danger call 999
• If you do not need an emergency response you can call 101 or
• If you are not immediate danger you can can contact Police Scotland using their contact form on this page: https://www.scotland.police.uk/secureforms/contact/

Today we'd like to share some of our concerns re the importance of truth in relation to council cemetery rules and the upcoming committee meeting on the 8th August:  

• Can the public, Edinburgh Council and councillors on the board deciding cemetery rules trust the other petition to give factual evidence on the 8th August? - they haven't always appeared to do so in their petition 
• Can the public, Edinburgh Council and councillors on the rule deciding board trust that the other petition will believe and not deny what officials say and not tell people something different or do something because they think something looks a certain way? - they denied what public officials stated in relation to trial signage and continued to state they were trial rules
• Can the public, Edinburgh Council and councillors in the relevant board trust people (including the other petition) not to inappropriately and inaccurately self-police our cemeteries should councillors decide on some sort of ban? - see below discussion - we know a ban was not officially enforced last time and it may be the same this time, meaning self-policing is a risk.

 In yesterday's update we looked (again) at the trial signage in Morningside cemetery which the other petition have been claiming are trial rules.   

Officials have confirmed many times now THERE ARE NO TRIAL RULES in Morningside cemetery.  

You can see the full post here: https://www.change.org/p/halt-the-petitioned-ban-on-dogs-in-edinburgh-cemeteries/u/32770500 

Official current cemetery rules:
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/33467/cemetery-management-rules  

The other petition has not commented on this most recent post at the time of writing. Maybe they haven't seen it which is fair enough but they certainly saw our previous discussions on the topic where their last words on the topic appeared to be that trial rules existed because they said so and because they looked like trial rules to them.  

Is this really good enough?  

We fully believe it is important for supporter's of both petitions and members of the public to be told the truth and thus treated with respect.  

We agree people can make mistakes and that's OK but you need to acknowledge, explain and apologise for doing so.  

If you keep arguing the same point with nothing to back you up except your word and because it "looks" a certain way then in our opinion you are starting to step into the ground of possibly deliberately misleading people.  

If you ignore information that states you made an error and do not take steps to correct this are you deliberately misleading people? 

We stated we did not know if the other petition truely believed what they were saying about trial rules or were deliberately misleading people, that's for them to comment on but their consistent denial or apparent ignoring of the issue is ringing alarm bells.  

Why does this even matter? Apart from human decency relating to being honest and respectful people need to know the truth to make informed decisions based on fact.   

Not just decisions about what petition to support, who to write to about what, whether to give a deputation etc but to know and be able to follow rules.  

Councillors deciding on cemetery rules need truthful informatiom to make informed decisions on rules.  

People also need to know the truth if they wish to correctly accuse others of rule breaking - we personally feel this is something that should be shared/dealt with by relevent police or council services and not the public but that's maybe just us.  

One of the problems with self policing is people can make mistakes or even deliberately mislead people to further their cause. This could have untold consequences for the person they have wrongly accused.  

We have many concerns re self policing but today we'll talk about photographs as we raised this concern a while ago and said we were following it up.  

When we first raised concerns about photos the other petition, on the 4th July, stated:  

"Edinburgh Council HAVE ASKED US for Photos...and we have plenty (including Short Leads)"  

"It is not against any law to take pictures of people breaking rules in public places."  

"If you have a problem with getting your picture taking (sic) when breaking the rules, simply don't break the rules!  Better yet, go somewhere else where you won't be upsetting someone enough to want to take your photo whilst breaking the rules."  

Post by the other petition on the subject of photographs: https://www.change.org/p/edinburgh-council-to-reinstate-no-dogs-in-cemeteries-rule-that-was-in-place-pre-covid/u/32727079  

We appreciate they have recently posted photos from Warriston cemetery stating they were supplied by Mrs Pedan but this discussion is not about that, it's about their photos of Morningside cemetery and their false accusations of rule breaking.  

Recently, the other petition has shared 8 photographs of people who appeared to be in Morningside Cemetery - there is a possibility they may not all have been in this cemetery.  

When we first saw these photos we were confused as 6 out of these 8 (75%) were actually following rules. 

This 75% of rule followers have been wrongly accused of rule breaking and had their photos put on the Internet. They are still there as far as we know.   

Is this not misleading? Is it even lying?  

The other petition stated they were asked to take these photos by Edinburgh Council - were they? 

 They stated it was not against the law to take such photos - we're still following this up but do feel it goes against cemetery rule 1.1 as well as just being disrespectful to possible mourners.  

The other petition stated they would only take photos of rule breakers - clearly they have also taken photos of people following the rules.  

We have, however, noticed that since 10th July they have not posted any photos from Morningside cemetery but instead used other images.

• Is this because they don't think people are breaking rules in Morningside anymore?
• Did their camera break?
• Did they just fancy a change of post style?

We dont know and can't speak for them.

What we do know is in our opinion they are breaking rule 1.1 and they stated they would only take photos of rule breakers - they have taken 6 photos of people adhering to rules and posted them online and not taken the photos down when it was pointed out to them there were no rule breaches, they have not yet acknowledged that these people aren't even breaking rules.  

Can the other petition really be relied on to tell the truth, give reliable accurate evidencd and be open with the public and council officials who decide such rules?  

We believe there are many behaviours in our cemeteries that need addressed, including a minority of dog related rule breakers and we want to educate on many aspects to improve these behaviours.  

We have no issue asking for information when we are unsure of something or wanting to evidence a point and we have no issue acknowledging and apologising when we make mistakes - we are human and those will happen.

We do not feel any form of a ban on dogs in cemeteries is appropriate for many reasons, including: 

• Disadvantaging mourners
• Disadvantaging women and vunerable groups and their safety concerns 
• Excluding a protective and helpful footfall to our cemeteries 
• Excluding people who do no wrong but want to visit cemeteries for all the socially acceptable reasons people without dog do
• Potentially opening up cemeteries to inappropriate, inaccurate self- policing by the public - rules don't appear to have been officially enforced last time what will be different this time to stop people feeling they need to self police?

There are many other reasons which you can find through our updates.

Let's work together to keep Edinburgh Council Cemeteries for all.  

Other ways you can get involved and share your view:  

Write to your local councillor - List of your local Councillors: https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0  

Write to committe members who will discuss and decide on cemetery rules - List of who is due to be at the committee meeting including committee members: https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMeetingAttendance.aspx?ID=7281  

Consider giving a written or verbal deputation - Website where further information will be posted in relation to the meetings, we understand around a week before the meeting: https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=139&MId=7281  

Vote on the Scotsman's article where you can place your vote (it is not binding in any way): https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/why-council-will-vote-on-a-ban-dogs-from-all-edinburgh-cemeteries-4679251?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1jiu0nmOB5KkeddVY_d0oDN6U2gt09cUrdWgBgQNW9Nr0N14p8EnUv3gs_aem_n3NYnWSu9Bpe_wP_x0twLw#disqus-comment-section