*At the time of writing all information relating to information written by the counter petition amd their supporters is correct - their information may or may not be changed which could impact on the relevance and accuracy of what we post but this is outwith our control - we do not have the capacity to keep checking their posts then correct as we write ours*
Hi all
Many many thanks to everyone supporting and spreading the word of this petition.
Let's see if we can signatures up to the next change.org goal of 1, 500! - please keep sharing this petition on any media platform you are on or even by good old fashioned word of mouth.
If you are concerned about our council cemeteries, Edinburgh citizens and behaviour in cemeteries - we need your help before and on the day of the 8th August.
Feel free to email us cemeteries4all@yahoo.com
or see the end of this post for other ways to get involved.
Yesterday we stated our many concerns re a potential ban on dogs (with or without exemptions) in our Edinburgh council cemeteries.
These concerns are from people who themselves have loved one in cemeteries and these reasons go far beyond dogs being able to access greenspaces and parks - cemeteries are unique places which we don't count as a greenspace or park.
We fully believe there are issues with behaviours (not just from dog walkers) and rule adherance in our cemeteries but we want something that will actually address matters in a porportionate fair way for all that causes no detriment to rule abiding people and won't have the potential to inadvertently have very negative affects on people, living and resting in our council cemeteries.
A dog ban did not appear to work last time to address negative behaviour of dog walkers - why would it this time? And what about other behaviours?
Our post from yesterday:
https://www.change.org/p/halt-the-petitioned-ban-on-dogs-in-edinburgh-cemeteries/u/32752457
Yesterday, we also mentioned a post on Nextdoor: https://nextdoor.co.uk/p/JpXwDWt8HhrN?view=detail
There were many things discussed on this post but for us the most disturbing one was a supporter of the other petition seeming to dismiss women's and other vunerable groups safety concerns in cemeteries and that they feel safer with a dog.
They asked for evidence to back this "claim" up and would not accept when we sent them the 2022 consultation on rules which stated these concerns.
There was some back and forth where they proceeded to ask for evidence of crimes such as assults.
As far as we are concerned if women and vunerable groups feel unsafe then they feel unsafe - end of - they do not need to justify, evidence or be assaulted to have their concerns taken seriously although it would be great if we could discuss how to make these groups feel safer.
You can Google women's and vunerable groups safety concerns and you will get reams of campaigns, campaigners and policies - including our city's own campaign, related committee and their constitution.
All of these will explain that women and vunerable groups have very understandable concerns relating to their safety due to decades of their groups being victims of crimes and abuse.
All of these will explain that women and vunerable groups have fears re speaking out due to concerns they will not be believed, not taken seriously or will make matters worse.
All of these explain the importance of believing and acting upon people's safety concerns and not perpetuating the silence thay ruled over these groups actual safety and safety concerns for decades.
None of these want people to justify their concerns or measure their concerns in relation to assault numbers.
However, against our own judgement we stated what we said in yesterday's update re behaviours of people being approached, shouted at, followed, having their photo taken without explanation or permission.
Again they just asked for more evidence, then put this up:
"Have vulnerable groups and woman been attacked in cemeteries, any more than say Lothian Road at 1am on a Sunday morning? I'm genuinely asking you for the evidence to support this claim"
What?!?! Are we now saying women and vunerable groups can only feel unsafe if there has been attacks in said place? Are we now saying one place may have more attacks than another so people have no right to feel unsafe in a place with less attacks?
We are baffled to be honest.
Surely any attacks on women or vunerable groups (or anyone) are wrong no matter how many there are, location, time or comparison to other places?
Surely any fears of safety are valid and should be taken seriously?
Does this person have no respect for women and vunerable groups that they feel the need to question their safety concerns and will only believe such concerns if there have been assaults?
If so we find this truely truely awful and feel it could potentially undo many decades work of encouraging people to speak out and reassuring them they will be heard and taken seriously.
As we have said this is one supporter not the other petition but we do wonder what the other petition's views are of this supporters line of questioning. Is this supporter representative of the other petition and other supporters of it?
We also wonder how they would address women's and vunerable groups safety concerns in cemeteries if they were to succeed in taking away something (dogs) that these groups have to make them feel safer.
On the 13th July the other petition posted an update titled "Not one single PERSON will be prevented from entering a cemetery" - in this they acknowledge there are socially acceptable reasons people may visit cemeteries other than mourning.
We ourselves stated these other socially acceptable reasons from incredibly early on although it may have taken a while to succinctly state them:
“Further many people may visit the cemetery for the beauty and solace it provides - something that is often lacking in this big city.”
“They may or may not be visiting loved ones but requiring a space to get away from it all or even to work through personal troubles - dogs can also be a real healer and they may have a furry companion along with them for this reason.”
At the time they could not acknowledge these socially accepted reasons for visiting cemeteries:
"One thing I never thought I would hear someone saying about Edinburgh is "it is lacking in beauty and solace”.
Morningside Park is literally next door to Morningside Cemetery, 30 seconds away. The Hermitage, Braidburn Valley Park and Blackford Hill and Pond are a short walk away."
"If you want to "get away from it all" with your dog, there are plenty of beautiful green spaces in Edinburgh to do that."
We are very glad to see they appear to have changed their stance on this and now appear to recognise the importance these beautiful places of solace can have for people, however, it is sad they appear to want to exclude people from this even if they say they are not.
Sorry, but in our opinion if you are excluding dogs you are excluding people who rely on those dogs for safety concerns, emotional support or other valid reasons and who may not be able to go to cemetries without their dog.
This includes mourners who wish to visit their loved ones with dogs without the intrusion of having to justify why they are there.
The other petition has stated people will not need to prove they are a mourner if they have a dog with them.
So will this rule not be enforced by the council? It doesn't appear to have been enforced or adhered to pre-covid so why would it be followed this time without any enforcement.
Will someome make sure that members of the public don't decide to self police and approach people? Remembering that the #respect her space campaign discussed yesterday explicitly states not to approach lone women as it can cause serious distress.
We know the other petition takes photos of people it incorrectly cites as breaking rules - will mourners be potentially be photographed if they have a dog with them and the other petition (or others) don't believe they are a mourner?
Paul himself is quoted in the main petition statement as saying he approaches and talks to people for breaking rules - how will he know if a person with a dog is a mourner? Will he be able to trust that someone with a dog is there as a mourner or will he "have to" follow them, approach them and/or talk them to establish this? Again, remember the respect her space campaign.
On 14th of July the other petition shared Paul's deputation from 2 years ago BEFORE rules were implemented where he seemed quite keen on an on lead rule stating if it was not implemented he would return to ensure it was. He stated
"this is Xander's final resting place, I've got no choice people who take dogs have so much choice"
We feel for you Paul we really do but with all due respect, no, not all of us have choice.
Mourners and people with dogs are not mutually exclusive - like you we can't uproot our loved ones and take them elsewhere and we may need to take our dog for safety or emotional support or even because a loved one wanted it, alongside other reasons.
You and your petition are potentitally taking away our choice to visit loved ones with our dog (or even the loved one's dog) in peace and without possible intrusion on our grief and feelings of safety.
There are others who may have mobility, anxiety or neurological conditions and have no choice but to go to cemetries as they may be closer to their house or provide a unique environment better suited to their needs that other places do not, if their dog is well behaved and on a lead why should this be taken away from them? What are they supposed to do instead?
Cemeteries provide a unique space like no other area, if someone wants this experience they have no other place to go - if their dog is well behaved and on a lead what problem are they causing - as mourners ourselves we see none.
If somone wants to look at historical or ancestral graves they have no where else except a cemetery to go - if their dog is well behaved and on a lead what problem are they causing - as mourners ourselves we see none.
There may also be dogs who are nervous around traffic and other dogs and who feel safe in a cemetery. Where are they to go? That's probably considered inappropriate to mention and if so we apologise but we do feel it is a point worth saying even if we will get blasted for it - dogs are sentientammals like us and have thoughts and feelings.
To the people reading this if you are concerned about taking away something (dogs) that women and vunerable groups are noted to use to make themselves feel safer in our cemeteries - help us in this fight.
If you are concerned about mourners not being able to take their dog for support as they visit loved ones (the council may not grant an exemption IF they do decide on a ban) - help us in this fight.
If you are concerned that an exception for mourners with a dog may mean their grief being intruded upon - help us in this fight.
If you are concerned about people who want to visit our council cemeteries for other socially acceptable reasons (not just mourning) and being excluded because they have a well behaved dog with them on a lead - a dog who may offer invaluable feelings of safety, companionship and/or support - help us in this fight.
If you want rules that will work for everyone and will only penalise rule breakers - help us in this fight.
If you agree with us that there are behaviours in our council cemeteries that need addressed in a porportionate well thought out manner rather than an extreme ban (with or without exemptions) which may cause detriment our living and resting people in cemeteries - help us in this fight.
Let's keep working together to keep cemetries4all respectful, responsible users.
Other ways you can get involved and share your view:
Write to your local councillor - List of your local Councillors:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0
Write to committe memebers who will discuss and decide on cemetery rules - List of who is due to be at the committee meeting including committee members:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMeetingAttendance.aspx?ID=7281
Consider giving a written or verbal deputation - Website where further information will be posted in relation to the meetings, we understand around a week before the meeting:
https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=139&MId=7281
Vote on the Scotsman's article where you can place your vote (it is not binding in any way):
https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/why-council-will-vote-on-a-ban-dogs-from-all-edinburgh-cemeteries-4679251?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1jiu0nmOB5KkeddVY_d0oDN6U2gt09cUrdWgBgQNW9Nr0N14p8EnUv3gs_aem_n3NYnWSu9Bpe_wP_x0twLw#disqus-comment-section