At the time of writing all information relating to information written by  the counter petition and their supporters is correct - their information may or may not be changed which could impact on the relevance and accuracy of what we post but this is outwith our control - we do not have the capacity to keep checking their posts then correct as we write ours

Hi all  

Many many thanks to everyone supporting and spreading the word of this petition.  

At the time of writing we have 1, 143 signatures - let's see if we can get that up to the next change.org goal of 1, 500!  

There's other ways to get involved and these are noted at the end of this update - remember the committee meet to discuss cemetery rules on 8th August!  

Apologises for no posts over the weekend we are currently unwell and also had a birthday boy to celebrate - we have a little to catch up from the other petition but will address this in coming days.  

We had to choose between using our limited energy and time to post an update or deal with a worrying situation in relation to possibly misleading information on next door: https://nextdoor.co.uk/p/JpXwDWt8HhrN?view=detail please feel free to join in.  

As we've stated before we ourselves are mourners with loved onces in council cemeteries accross Edinburgh and we believe this is a multifaceted issue - we are not merely about letting dogs into cemeteries for the sake of it.  

There are many reasons we disagree with a ban on dogs (with or without) excemptions but we do believe action is required to improve ALL behaviours in our 43 council cemeteries and we do agree with on lead use in relation to dogs.  

In the nextdoor discussion as, well as in the actual petiton, they failed to adequately address many of the above aspects of concern and indeed appeared to dismiss some serious concerns regarding women's and vunerable groups feelings of safety.  

We believe there are many aspects that require consideration in relation to any rules changes in cemeteries, as yet not adequately addressed by the other petition, including:

• Mourners who wish to take their four legged family member with then to grieve for a lost one without intrusion on their grief as to why they are there
• The deceased themselves who may have loved dogs in life and might like to see them in death 
• The no dogs rule pre covid was not enforced or adhered to in at least 2 cemeteries (all if you believe some council officials) - what would this rule actually to do improve the behaviours of the minority of rule breakers  
• There are many socially accepted reasons one might visit a cemetery in addition to mourning - to visit ancestors, to visit historical graves, for nature, for quiet contemplation, to settle a baby - the list could go on - why should a rule abiding person and their on lead well behaved dog miss out on this for a minority of rules breakers - is this really just?
• The footfall of dogs can be protective and a deterrent to unwanted or illegal behaviour - if you remove this footfall how will you ensure cemetries, their inhabitants and visitors are protected?
• People with dogs may actually help such as cleaning up rubbish or maintaining older graves that are no longer visited by loved ones - if you remove dogs how will you ensure this important help continues?
• People have their dogs with them for many reasons - comfort, feelings of safety, mental health or neurological conditions- should these people effectively be discriminated against for their need for something that may make them feel safe in a secluded environment?
• Is is porportionate and just to remove a rule abiding majority for a minority of rule breakers in a minority of cemeteries?
• The list of aspects could go on but we feel thay is enough to demonstrate how complicated this after truely is.

Today we'll focus on women's safety as we're a little concerned by comments a supporter of the other petition made in the above nextdoor thread.

In the 2022 consultation on cemetery rules point 4.3.3 cited women and vunerable people felt safer in cemeteries with dogs and there were concerns perceived levels of safety in cemeteries may reduce if dogs were reduced.

https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/documents/s47927/Cemetery%20Rules%20Update%20-%20FINAL%20v2.pdf

The other petiton has thus far failed to address this point. However, one of their supporters in the nextdoor post appeared to dismiss this serious point - do they speak for the other petition ate they representative ofnthe supportersof this petition?

Instead of acknowledging these concerns and citing how they might be addressed if dogs were banned (with or without exemptions) they said "are you saying they feel they need some sort of protection in a cemetery?...why go in then?" and further said "I am merely asking you (or anyone else) for evidence to support their claim".

As far as we are concerned if women and other vunerable groups say that they feel unsafe then they feel unsafe - they should not have to justify this.

To ask for evidence of crimes to validate/invalidate their concerns re their safety to us is highly inappropriate, disrespectful and partly why woman amd other vunerable groups feel unsafe as they are not taken seriously or respected.

Further "why go in" if they have these concerns - maybe because they want to grieve for a lost loved one or visit for the many other socially accepted reasons to visit a cemetrey and they can do this because they feel safe to do so with their dog with them.

Maybe the person has had a traumatic event in their past and has their dog with them to help with that, and maybe they feel especially vulnerable in secluded places.

Should mourners and other visitors not be able to have a being with them that makes them feel safe as they visit cemeteries for socially accepted reasons? Should someone have to lose their independence by asking for someone else other than their dog to accompany them? What if they want privacy when grieving and don't want another person with them? What if they want to go to a cemetery and no one is free? Should a grieving person just not visit a loved one because they feel unsafe in a cemetery and can't take the being that supports them with this? IF an exemption is granted for mourners with dogs (IF some sort of ban were to be implemented) there is the possibily they may be approached by strangers to justify why they are there which will not only intrude upon their grief but may intrude upon feelings of safety - the respect her space campaign (below) advises against approaching line women as this can seriously affect her feelings of safety.

Personally we don't think these women and vulnerable groups should have to justify their safety concerms but if you yourself are reading this and want evidence we'll say what we said to the supporter of the other petition - people are scared to speak out, people are scared they won't be believed or taken seriously or scared they will make matters worse.

We have recieved emails and spoken to people in person and encouraged them to report behaviours to the police, bereavement services, local Councillors and the councillors on the board that decides cemetery rules.

The behaviours we have had reported to us include people who have been approached, shouted at, followed, had their photo taken without their permission and they have no idea why and it made them very uncomfortable and they felt unsafe.

If it wasn't enough to feel unsafe due to belonging to a vulnerable group who are more likely to be at the receiving end of violence or crime, maybe the above noted behaviours justify safety concerns.

As stated, we feel if someone feels unsafe, they feel unsafe, and this should be taken seriously, and they should not have to justify this.

Edinburgh Council, NHS Lothian, Police Scotland, and voluntary organisations are all members of the Equally Safe Edinburgh Committee who are partly behind the "#respect her space" campaign and have a constitution which states:  

1.11.The Equally Safe Strategy further defines VAWG (violence against women) as the actual and threat of:

1.11.1. Physical, sexual, psychological, emotional and financial abuse occurring in the family, within the general community, and in institutions in both physical and digital spaces and places  

Edinburgh Equally Safe Committee: https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/children-families/equally-safe-edinburgh-committee

Edinburgh Equally Safe Committee Constitution: https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/30202/equally-safe-edinburgh-committee-constitution

Respect her space campaign: https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/community-safety-antisocial-behaviour/respect-space  

As you can see women's perception of safety is just as important as actual safety - at least in the eyes of some of our main public bodies, we're not sure it is in relation to the other petition who to our knowledge have never addressed point 4.3.3 from the 2022 consultation.  

We would hope that when it comes to deciding if council cemetery rules need changed that our elected councillors on the board who decide such matters can respect women's safety, the campaign they are involved in, the groups they are a part of and the constitution they have signed up to and ensure any descions they make are not to the detriment of woman's and vunerable groups concerns re safety.  

Whilst we have seen what a supporter of the other petition appears to think of women's safety concerns we have yet to hear from the petition themselves - do they think women deserve to feel safe in our Edinburgh council cemeteries and deserve to do so in a way that works for them? We would hope that they don't merely suggest people concerned about their safety don't go to cemetries or take somome else with them - people should be able to visit these places and feel safe using legal means that they feel help them.

If you have any concerns about safety or behaviours in any space, including cemeteries, please contact the police (999 if you feel in immediate danger, 101 if not), bereavement services, your local councillor or the members of thebboard who decide on cemeterey matters. 

Remember your feelings of safety and actual safety matter and concerns will be taken seriously, you habe the right to feel safe.

You can also contact us if you wish for support in reporting or even discussing a concern: cemeteries4all@yahoo.com 

If you support women's safety and are concerned about their safety ckncerms being taken seriously in relation to cemeteries please share out petition or write to councillors and committee board members.

Let's keep working together to keep cemetries4all respectful, responsible users.  

Other ways you can get involved and share your view:   Write to your local councillor - List of your local Councillors:   https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0  

Write to committe memebers who will discuss and decide on cemetery rules - List of who is due to be at the committee meeting including committee members:   https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/mgMeetingAttendance.aspx?ID=7281  

Consider giving a written or verbal deputation - Website where further information will be posted in relation to the meetings, we understand around a week before the meeting:   https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=139&MId=7281  

Vote on the Scotsman's article where you can place your vote (it is not binding in any way):   https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/why-council-will-vote-on-a-ban-dogs-from-all-edinburgh-cemeteries-4679251?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1jiu0nmOB5KkeddVY_d0oDN6U2gt09cUrdWgBgQNW9Nr0N14p8EnUv3gs_aem_n3NYnWSu9Bpe_wP_x0twLw#disqus-comment-section