Hi all

Many thanks again to all our wonderful signers, sharers, donators and defenders helping us keep cemetries4all!

As always you can email us at:

cemeteries4all@yahoo.com

Essentially, we want the same thing as the other petition and the same thing many of you want - for people to keep their dogs on leads in cemeteries and clean up dog fouling.

Unfortunately, the other petition want to create a new rule/law for this which would exclude a majority of people who use cemetries respectfully, responsibly and within current rules - including people who may value the space for reasons relating to anxiety disorders. The petitioned rule/law change may also severely disadvantage mourners in risking them having to prove why they are in a cemetrey with their dog - we feel this is highly inappropriate and could cause someone already in pain even more distress.

We want to keep current rules but educate and possibly enforce them better - this would allow the minority creating issues to be addressed whilst disadvantaging no one - many people seem to agree.

In our last update we shared with you comments from the social media platform NextDoor. 

Today we'd like to share with you comments from Reddit and our supporters or those with shared ideas to ours.

As with many comments re this subject some comments are quite passionate and language may reflect this. We do not wish to offend anyone in sharing these comments but do feel they are important to hear, including, the feeling with which they are written.

Similar to the NextDoor comments we shared you can see that some people are concerned by the other petition for the following reasons - how will you distinguish between a mourner with a dog and someone else with a dog; measures requested are disproportionate to what is happening; a majority will be punished for a minority; there are other more important matters for pwople to worry about; people can use cemetries respectfully and responsibly with their dogs; although the primary purpose of cemetries is for mourning and protecting our desceased loved ones others can gain benefits from visiting cemetries which they can't from greenspaces such as visiting headstones, peace and tranquility etc.

Unlike the NextDoor post we are also seeing comments re the possibility problems such as faeces may be caused by wildlife; humans themselves may cause issues littering, use the space to become inebriated, or steal flowers; some cemetries are older and do not have burials or seldom have them (only 10 put of 43 cemetries have plots for new burials) so there may be few to no mourners visiting them and those with dogs may visit the space respectfully and responsibly keeping footfall up to doscourage unwanted behaviours and give the desceased some company; people with anxiety conditions can use them responsibly and respectfully and would be denied this under the other petition; there may be huge observational bias as we only see faeces left behind and not that which is picked up; the petition is written on behalf of someone experiencing extreme grief who may be lashing out due to grief and targets dog walkers as they have no one else to target - they've already had their request considered and rules were changed but the council felt further measures were draconian amd not required.

There have been many many comments on Reddit so today we'll share ones from one month ago when this all began.

First post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/1ah0wcw/petition_edinburgh_council_to_revert_no_dogs_in/

Thread one:
"How would you distinguish between dog walkers who are there to mourn with Fido in town and dog walkers who aren't? Going to be tricky...  
Wanting to exclude an entire group because of a couple of selfish idiots is the laziest kneejerk reaction going. Deal with the offenders, not those who happen to share a characteristic with them. 

I can't help but feel this is a man who is understandably still grieving for the tragic loss of his toddler, perhaps still in the anger phase. The elderly woman who killed him died before her trial, he didn't get any sense of closure from the criminal justice process, and now he's lashing out at others. 

He's already had his request considered, and the council agreed to tighten the rules. https://theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2022/02/father-of-boy-killed-in-morningside-fails-in-bid-to-have-dogs-banned-in-city-graveyards/

I hope he is receiving counselling to come to terms with his grief."

"Quite a common theme these days to call for blanket regulation to something that only a small handful are actually doing.       
There would be 0 enforcement anyway, can’t remember the last time I seen a person let alone any sort of cemetery warden or groundskeeper at the place I walk around and doubt there would be any money to go towards changing that."

Thread 2:

"Maybe we could also ban people from cemeteries because some scummers steal items left on the graves. My aunt went to tend to my uncle's grave and found that a heavy plant pot of lovely flowers had been nicked.

What happened to the little boy was awful but this is not a proportionate response. How do you prove that someone is not visiting a grave anyway? And how do you know that they're not the ones letting their dogs steal the teddies?"

From the other petiton re the above comment:

"It would be self-policing if it was a rule and clear signage was displayed - there are numerous green spaces in Edinburgh to exercise a dog, many just a short walk away from this cemetery."

In reply to the above:

"Yes, but the people causing the problem will just ignore this. And you'll get other people trying to have dogs banned from other green spaces because of dog fouling, out of control dogs, &c. Don't get me wrong, I think people who don't pick up after or control their dogs are revolting, but a total ban is disproportionate. I don't live in Edinburgh so don't have a horse in this race, but I really don't like to see the actions of a few horrible people impacting the decent majority.

Plus, if I ended up in a cemetery (which isn't the plan) I'd love to think of wee happy, furry faces tootling along next to my final resting place, just like some folk would smile to think about wee kids running around beside theirs."

"Dogs already have to be on leads in cemeteries, which is a direct result of this man's request, but apparently nothing but the most Draconian measures are enough for him https://theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2022/02/father-of-boy-killed-in-morningside-fails-in-bid-to-have-dogs-banned-in-city-graveyards/"

Off shoot of the first post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Edinburgh/comments/1ah0cld/petition_edinburgh_council_to_revert_no_dogs_in/

"The "couple" refers to people who have allowed their dog to take a soft toy or poo without clearing up after them. 

This isn't going to be any more self policing than the rules about not taking toys from graves or leaving poo behind.

He is lashing out; he wants to restrict what complete strangers do because a small minority of people are being antisocial. He's upset, he's grieving, he's angry, but none of this will bring back his son. 

He might like to reflect on the reality that occasionally graves are vandalised. One thing that reduces the risk of that happening is passerby - people tend not to commit such crimes if there are obvious witnesses. In the winter, very often dog walkers are the only people in green spaces. Dog walkers therefore increase footfall, naturally keep their eye out for problems and deter ne'er-do-wells by their very presence. 

Some people channel their energies into fundraising. Some people channel their energies into campaigning for better road safety. He seems to be channeling his energy into restricting access to dog walkers."

"Hope this wouldn't apply to basically non functioning and reclaimed (by nature) cemeteries like Preston field. Have rarely seen any recent headstones in there and it's a wonderful place for a dog walk.

So hopefully there is room for nuance rather than just a lazy blanket ban"

"Graveyards beside us, most are 1850 - 1945ish and I love walking in the graveyard"

A little uncouth but kind of funny and we feel demonstrates people's frustration with the other petition and disproportionate measures requested:

"To all dog walkers, If me or any of my family get buried with a headstone, I'm alright with your dug taking a piss or shite on it x"

"There are many other factors to consider.

Foxes can shred teddies left at graves. They also pee n poop where they want.

Responsible owners walk their dogs on the paths and ensure they don't do their toileting on headstones, picking up after and taking the bag to a bin.

There are other bad things that happen in cemeteries. Groups of youths drinking and getting high. They move benches into groups and litter the place.

Junkies use them to get high, score, deficate, and sleep in.

I am Autistic and have severe CPTSD plus Agoraphobia. During the days when I would be able to take my dogs on a longer walk, when we go around the cemetery, we are always careful and together. We stay clear of all people."

"You don't see the dog poo that's picked up or really notice the dog that's not bothering you. Obviously you are going to notice the bad owners more. There are approx 12 million dogs in the UK, if the majority of owners were actually letting their dogs shit everywhere you would be wading in the stuff."

"You must live in a nice area. 

In rougher areas, people rarely talk about dog shit because there are much bigger problems that take priority. 

People always want to find something to moan about though; when there's nothing bigger to moan about dog shit is always a good option. 

Massive confirmation bias too - you only see the dog shit that isn't picked up, and that reinforces your view. You don't notice all the shit that is picked up."

"I think there’s probably a massive observation bias on your part here, most dogs aren’t the ones in your head because they aren’t the ones you see shitting and not being cleaned up after, in my own experiences as a dog owner and being on actual dog walking routes, the vast majority of dog owners are responsible for their dogs’ mess, also I would never walk a dog in a cemetery in the first place that’s just weird and disrespectful and would also depress me to no end.

I think these people aren’t the ones particularly suited to taking that responsibility in the first place, it’s like looking at school shooters in America and going “God I hate mentally ill teenagers so much ��"

In reply to the above:

"Why is it weird? I grew up living right next to a graveyard and am pretty fascinated by them, I love walking in them especially, the peace and tranquility is out this world"

In reply to the above: 

"I mean more specifically open cemeteries, the grieving families and occasional funeral processions are a bit off putting I suppose, but I grew up next to forested areas and I feel that way about that them so I appreciate it’s a personal thing for you, if it’s the graves of someone who died 200 years ago that’s acceptable for a walk yeah but if you’re strolling past 2 year old Timmy that fell down the stairs in 2017 it’s not the jolliest of walks is all I’m saying"

"Again, target the offenders not those who happen to share a characteristic with them.

It could easily have been fox shit by the way; I'm convinced dog owners get the blame for a lot of wild animal turds. It's always wise to check before kneeling or sitting on the grass."