Hi all
Many thanks to our new and continuing signers, sharers and surprise wonderful donators all helping to get our petition out there. We'd also like to thank those who are advocating and defending this petiton on social media platforms - this is not an easy thing to do and your support is valued beyond what we can verbalise xx
As one supporter has stated - people with dogs adds footfall to cemetries and thus witnesses and a related deterrent for people breaking the rules. If on leads and taking care of dog fouling and behaving in a manner acceptable in a cemetrey we agree this might actually be a bonus of people and dogs in cemetries - a bonus which the other petition would remove if their request was granted.
Our main news is a continuation of some of our previous updates but we also as the title suggests want to share full information on something that the other petition has only partially shared.
We have previously informed you that the current rules were reviewed just over two months ago and the council cited there was insufficient evidence to support a change in the rules. This evidence was that few complaints had been recieved by them and that the complaints refferred to 4 of the 43 cemetries in their care.
We then updated you that Edinburgh Council have stated they are not reviewing rules and have no future plans to, they are focusing on educating people on the rules - such as the sign they posted at Morningside cemetery.
We shared with you the rules of the cemetrey and how you can report concerns of these not being adhered to so that you have full information on what the current rules are and how to address any concerns you have.
We gave you information yesterday as to the names of the 43 cemetries under Edinburgh City Council care and thus those that will be affected by rule changes.
Today we'd like to share information from one of the MSPs we have contacted re this matter. You can see this below, names retracted for privacy:
"Thank you for your email highlighting the opposing petitions regarding dogs in cemeteries in Edinburgh. It wasn’t an issue I’d previously been aware of.
This issue, which as you observe is generating strong views on both sides, is one for the City of Edinburgh Council to consider and I am pleased to see that you have also written to your local Councillors."
As can be clearly seen they have not heard of either petition and are therefore not aware of the request to change rules. More importantly they very clearly state this is a matter for the council to decide.
It would seem to us that as MSPs say it is a council matter and the council state they will not change the rule at the present time or in the near future that the issue re rule changes is resolved. It appears that the petition for "Edinburgh Council to reinstate "No Dogs in Cemetries" has had it's request answered and denied.
With this in mind we wonder why the other petition is still going and what they are actually doing and asking for. Are their supporters especially their donators aware of this information? Are people donating to a petition which in effect appears to have ended? Are they going to try and reform the way public matters are decided by publically elected officials using legislated procedure to get their request fufilled? If so does this possibly undermine not only the public and publicly elected officials but also in effect rules - a process which they appear to advocate against?
We unfortunately have no answers as they don't appear to post much information in relation to what they are doing and how this has progressed.
We will keep this petition going for now until we know whether the matter has been resolved to ensure that those who oppose the other petition have a voice and to try to ensure rules are not changed for all the reasons discussed in our updates and petition so far.
This brings us on to the second part of our update and full disclosure of facts and information.
The petition for "Edinburgh Council to reinstate "No Dogs in Cemetries" rule that was in place pre-Covid" posted an update yesterday with a screenshot from a nextdoor post. Yet again they did not give full information, in fact, they stated "No comment required".
You can view their update here:
We personally feel that comment is required. People should be able to have full information to inform their thoughts and decisions re both petitions. People need to know the context and what was actually said - not information that suits one side's agenda.
For context the petition for "Edinburgh Council to reinstate "No Dogs in Cemetries" rule that was in place pre-Covid" posted re their petition and mentioned our petition including a link to their update from 9th February which went through our petiton discussing various points - sometimes inaccurately. There were people on the post who were not happy with their petition and indeed at least one commenter highlighted a concern which our own petition discusses. We decided to share our petition so people could see for themselves what it was about, give full information and facts and possibly give support to those disagreeing with their petition or citing concern - the comment they cite from nextdoor was a response to this. We did make some other comments which you can see on the post but we won't discuss them now as their update was in relation to the particular thread that we will discuss.
Please note we did speak more strongly than we would have liked and than we would normally. We always aim to be polite, factual and professional esque however on this occasion we slipped a little - partly as we are still upset re our supporter and the correspondence they recieved from the other petition which has really upset them and set them back in terms of their anxiety. One commenter on our petition commented we replied in a "nice" way to the above mentioned correspondence and this is what we endeavour to do. You may notice our comments have been edited by us - as mentioned before we are dyslexic and at times have to revisit our posts to make dyslexic related corrections.
For those who do not have access to nextdoor you can view the whole thread from the post below - related links are at the end. For those who have access to next door you can find the whole post on this link:
https://nextdoor.co.uk/p/34Ls_JLwYz7N/c/17592276968672?init_source=search&query=Andy%20Lees
First comment from us and on this thread in the post:
"Hi for anyone wanting to sign the counter petition or read what has been said or why the petition exists you can do so here. https://www.change.org/EdinburghCemetriesForAll
Please remember this is a counter petition against the petition mentioned here and not against an individual - there seems to be some confusion and inability to separate the two at times. Please also note the counter petition is written by concerned people who have loved ones in the cemetery. You can view the response to the above link at
https://www.change.org/p/halt-the-petitioned-ban-on-dogs-in-edinburgh-cemeteries/u/32331835
This clearly explains some of the comments in this post as well as commenter posts. For full disclosure people may wish to know that the Council has no current plan to change rules and that rules were reviewed a little over 2 months ago where they state there was insufficient official evidence to change rules."
Reply from the other petition:
"the only person talking about stopping loved ones entering a cemetery with a dog is you. Please stop lying. We have made our petition objectives crystal clear."
Reply from us:
"you talk of lying, once you added that caveat to your statement we never said you were talking about stopping loved ones entering a cemetrey with a dog. Please be careful with such statements and accusations as you could get yourself in legal trouble(edited)"
Comment from a supporter of the other petition:
"I think you are incredibly rude by posting a notice about your petition on Andrew’s page Monti. Trying to directly undermine and hijack someone else’s petition should be beneath you as I’m sure for many of us. People will find your petition because it is mentioned several times in these posts as well as a link to it which Andrew has provided in his petition, so there is no need to become the activist here.
Furthermore, surely you realise that it would be against ‘The Equalities Act 2010, (unlawful) to ban service dogs, or dogs who are supporting owners visiting a loved ones in a cemetery - so I don’t get your argument. At the beginning of Andrew’s petition, he makes this point very clear… “PLEASE NOTE - WE REALISE EXCEPTIONS SHOULD BE MADE FOR DOGS ACCOMPANYING MOURNERS & ASSISTANCE DOGS. THEY MUST HOWEVER BE KEPT ON SHORT LEADS”. He then highlights this statement 8 times throughout his entire petition, so again I just don’t get your argument.
I’ll say again, cemeteries are not and were never intended for walking dogs. They are places that families, including dogs, hold sacred because of important memories and loved who R.I.P. No one is campaigning for ‘all’ dogs to be banned, that is something which you seemed to have invented to support of your own petition."
Response to the supporter of the petition from ourselves:
"the petion is titled ""No Dogs in Cemeteries" rule that was in place pre-Covid" - let's re-read that """No Dogs in Cemeteries" rule that was in place pre-Covid" . What we're reading there is no dogs in cemetries should be allowed - does the tile read differently to you? Yes, they added a caveat after publishing but our petitiom feels this may in fact disadvantage mourners with dogs and not help them.
You yourself posted a strongly worded opposing view on my petition post (which was inaccurate) and asked for the link to the petition which was given to you. is this not rude, hijacking and undermining?
Further, the people writing the petiton for Edinburgh Council to reinstate ""No Dogs in Cemeteries" rule that was in place pre-Covid" have no issues going to my posts here or posts on Facebook which mention our petition and mentioning their own petition or indeed at times being inaccurate about ours or even what some might term as abusive. They have in fact contacted a supporter of our petition on facebook more than once with the second time citing many inaccuracies and coming across to the reader as quite abusive, the reader was actually very upset but tried to help clear the matter up which they did not have to do - so were in fact helping the petition you support even though they had been caused upset by the petition you support. People will find their petition as it's dotted about everywhere so why do they feel this need? Would you classify them as rude, undermining and hijacking our petition? You talk of equality yet you don't think we should have equality in this? You talk of equality yet you appear to feel one person's grief is worth more than others?
What they have shared is a link to their petition discussing our petition, with inaccuracies it is not a link to our petition. Please make sure you post facts.
We want people to be able to read the actual petition - and see facts about our petition not untruths. After the statement was added to their origional petition our petition acknowledged this but does not feel it right that mourners should be singled out and be at risk of having to prove they should be on a graveyard of they are their with their dog. Grief is awful and should not be made worse by cemetery rules.
We (who have loved ones in the cemetery) support the current rules and feel although they may need improvement in terms of adherence they are fine.
We do not want a change of rules as we like the council themself do not think there is a need or indeed official evidence to warrant such a change and as mentioned feel ot may disadvantage mourners with dogs.
The rules were reviewed just over 2 months ago which the other petition neglected to tell anyone.
Please remember our petition is against a rule (not an individual as you seem to imply at times) and is written by people who have loved ones in the cemetery for people of similar opinions and corcumstance - this is a sensitive topic for us and we and have feelings.(edited)"
Below are the links discussed in this thread.
Post the other petition shared on nextdoor from their change.org update in 9th February:
The response from our petition:
https://www.change.org/p/halt-the-petitioned-ban-on-dogs-in-edinburgh-cemeteries/u/32331835
Response from person connected to the other petiton to one of our supporters with response from our supporter and us:
https://www.change.org/p/halt-the-petitioned-ban-on-dogs-in-edinburgh-cemeteries/u/32336818
Updates from our petition in relation to the addition to their main statement. Please note we wrongly attributed the change to our petition when the other petiton states it is in relation to a message they recieved, this was covered in our update 10th February (linked above):
https://www.change.org/p/halt-the-petitioned-ban-on-dogs-in-edinburgh-cemeteries/u/32302640
https://www.change.org/p/halt-the-petitioned-ban-on-dogs-in-edinburgh-cemeteries/u/32306820