Hi all
We want to give a big thanks to new and continuing signers, sharers and the wonderful surprise donaters helping get our petition out there.
Before our main news we will update on information you may have seen.
The petition for "Edinburgh Council to reinstate "No Dogs in Cemeteries" rule that was in place pre-Covid" (sometimes referred to by us as the "banning rule" or other configurations of the main message of the title as it's such a long title and takes up a lot of space) have posted an update - in relation to this petition - it can be viewed in full here:
It is a very long post (by their own admission) which we personally found hard to fully digest (partly due to length and partly to our dyslexia) and we don't want to write a long post about it or start a childish "they said, we said" chain but equally feel that we need to yet again clarrify the other sides possible half reporting of matters.
The main issue seems to be they object to us not changing our main statement in relation to them adding a statement to their main statement. As they were informed when discussed on facebook the main statement was not changed as we are still against their petition and updates were issued to reflect their changes and explain why this petition would continue.
You can views these updates here:
- https://www.change.org/p/halt-the-petitioned-ban-on-dogs-in-edinburgh-cemeteries/u/32302640
- https://www.change.org/p/halt-the-petitioned-ban-on-dogs-in-edinburgh-cemeteries/u/32306820
Unfortunately we did initially state we thought the change to their main statement was due to our petition - for this we apologise.
In relation to declining to change our main statement it is our understanding that on change.org you write your main statement and then anything that occurs you put in updates - you do not change your main statement. This is why updates were issued and the main statement was not changed, this and only this.
They mentioned us stating the cemetrey is a place for peace, tranquility and solace which is rare in the busy city of Edinburgh and that people may use the cemetery for this and for a time out from the world. Perhaps we should have been clearer. Most cemetries in Edinburgh are fully enclosed, bringing a feeling of safety. The walls that enclose them often bring a peace that is hard to find in the city. There is generally an unwritten understanding that you do not speak to people or at times even acknowledge them in a cemetrey- so safe and quiet. People are allowed to look and express sadness in a cemetrey. The departed people in the cemetery can provide a non judgemental comfort and compansionship. Other places in the city do not provide the enclosure and related quite or feelings of safety, nor alllow of expressing upset and it is quite normal to meet others and be acknowledged by them and also to experience kids, teenagers, sports group shouting, laughing and having fun. In short cemetries provide an environment that other places cannot. This environment can be a godsend to people experiencing troubles who need a break from it all and need a quiet, safe space where they can feel what they need to feel. This may not be due to grief of a loved one in the cemetery but for instance may be due to grief of a loved one elsewhere, grief over a job or relationship loss or grief of losing their way of life/being for instance due to illness or anxiety. They may be getting abused at home or harassed in some other way or even feeling suicidal. Whilst some sort of counselling would obviously be best some people can find it helpful to go to cemetries and sit in quiet contemplation or even with dead people who will provide them quite non judgemental company during their upset or trauma. Whilst they may not have loved ones in the cemetery we as people who have loved ones and experienced some of these experiences feel people should be allowed to come to this space if it helps them and should be allowed to come with their dogs if needed if their dogs follow current rules and they are respectful. I personally know at least one of my relatives would rather have a stranger visit them and feel safe with them even if for a short period than that person go off and possibly harm themself. If people do not agree that's fine but that is what we meant and we will stick by it - perhaps we could have made it clearer and not assumed people would have the understanding required to understand what we said. We apologise for this and if anyone did not understand or took a different meaning and wishes to retract their signature please contact change.org who may be able to assist with this.
They have mentioned a post on next-door where comments were turned off - this is true but not due to intimidation as they state. They were turned off as people were clearly not reading the post or petition and writing untrue statements also some comments were disrespectful to people who are and may be grieving and opposed to the proposal for "Edinburgh Council to reinstate "No Dogs in Cemeteries" rule that was in place pre-Covid"
You can view the post here:
https://nextdoor.co.uk/p/kxxh-kNGPJNW?view=detail
They mention a comment in this petition thay was removed - we are sorry if people wish to see this but we felt it caused unnecessary upset and contravened change.org rules. We therefore felt that was the appropriate action to take to protect the emotional health of those who wrote the petition amd those signing who may be put off by such a comment. It's interesting the other petition has mentioned this given they have not shared the message they state was sent to them about adding a statement to their main statement, if they are concerned about full information sharing should they not be sharing all information fully....we know they don't as we have had to share full examples of cases they have cited, articles they have cited and indeed that a review of the rules has in fact happened just over 2 months ago.
Their updates also mentions they do not understand our statement in relation to people feeling intimidated to opposse the proposal for "Edinburgh Council to reinstate "No Dogs in Cemeteries" rule that was in place pre-Covid".
Perhaps they do not realise that it is extremely difficult to stand up and state you do not agree with something related to a very public, high profile tragic case. This is especially difficult when mourning and with anxiety. However, whether they understand this or not it does not invalidate these feelings or make them not exist.
Many people seem unable to separate the petition from the tragic event and death which occurred and this has been evidenced in comments stating this petition undermines the person's feelings. This is actually quite upsetting to be a recipient of when we have clearly stated we are against the petition and also have a loved one in the cemetery and makes it harder to speak out - we are not against an individual but do feel there are other valid opinions to also be heard. We actually feel that essentially both petitions want the same thing - for the cemetery to be used respectfully by users including those woth dogs, we just have different views on how this should come about and be ruled upon.
Further, people tend to focus on the tragedy in the other post and forget that this petition (not to change rules) is actually written by someone with family in the cemetery and for other people whom the cemetery means something to and who also don't want a rule change. One such comment from the aforementioned next-door includes "If the rules" are to be changed should it not be down to what the people who have loved ones buried think is ok?" Yes, that's what we are doing but it's made more difficult by such comments suggesting we can't be opposed to the rule asked for in the petition for "Edinburgh Council to reinstate "No Dogs in Cemeteries" rule that was in place pre-Covid" for some reason and that our opinion isn't valid.
As we have also mentioned there is a person who will approach dog walkers with their dog off the lead, oten resulting in verbal altercations and the person themselves has stated:
"...I have to speak to dog walkers on a daily basis, often getting abuse and even threats...This whole situation just adds to my grief and pushes my anxiety levels through the roof, which is why I sometimes get so irate with people and come across as aggressive, for which I apologise if I have shouted at you. Thank you"
Whilst their grief is understandable and they have never shouted at us it has been witnessed and can be scary to people. Also it is not their job to do approach or speak to people, they do not "have" to do this - the council and police have procedures in place and issues should be refferred to them. It is a further reason we are intimidated to speak out and feel others may be as well. Such behaviour may go against cemetery rules on behaviour in cemetries but the council cannot do anything unless reported to police Scotland and we feel no one will want to report somone who is grieving to the police, they will try and understand. However, this can lead to a continuation of the behaviour which as said has the potential to be scary and upsetting to cemetries users even if not directed at them.
These are just some of the reasons of the reasons one feels intimidated in standing against the petition - if you don't understand we appreciate that but we still feel it and feel others may do too.
We want to make it clear we do not want to add anyone's grief or anxiety for anyone to think we are going against an individual. We just want all voices to be heard and with equal respect - there is more than one grief here and we want to give others a voice. This petition is against the petition for the proposal for "Edinburgh Council to reinstate "No Dogs in Cemeteries" rule that was in place pre-Covid" not an individual and is actually written by someone with loved one's in the cemetery.
It is good that the proposal for "Edinburgh Council to reinstate "No Dogs in Cemeteries" rule that was in place pre-Covid" now welcomes other opinions and indeed a counter petition for as stated in their main comments and the discussion cited on facebook this was not always the case and again one felt it difficult due to this. Please see the statement below:
"... a petition was suggested in responses, he was afraid that there would be a counter petition from dog owners."
As stated in previous posts our stance remains the same - we support the current rules in place re walking dogs on lead, taking care of dog fouling and acting responsibly and respectfully.
We do not support the petition for proposal for "Edinburgh Council to reinstate "No Dogs in Cemeteries" rule that was in place pre-Covid" as we do not feel even with the added statement it offers protection to mourners and valid users with dogs. We in fact believe if a ban was put in place which excempted mourners that this might actually make matters worse for them as they will be at risk of having to justify their presence in the cemetrey instead of being able to focus on their grief. Grief is a private matter for some people and they should not be singled out.Furthermore we do not support the petition for the proposal for "Edinburgh Council to reinstate "No Dogs in Cemeteries" rule that was in place pre-Covid" as we feel their is insufficient official data to do so - as cited in yesterday's update on the council review just over 2onths ago. Finally we do not support the proposal for "Edinburgh Council to reinstate "No Dogs in Cemeteries" rule that was in place pre-Covid" as we do not believe it will be of any adnlvantage as those who do not follow rules currently will not follow rules if they are changed and only this that do follow rules will be disadvantaged such as mourner potentially having to somehow prove they should be there.
Hopefully that is all the points covered, apologies if not it was a long post and hard to keep track of. No omissions in our response are intentional. Apologises that took longer than we thought.
Now to our main news. We wrote to Edinburgh Council to make them aware of this petiton to ensure they were aware of it and took it into consideration alongside the other petition. They stated there is no plan to review the rules at the current the current time and cited us to the article posted in our update two days ago which notes the review carried out just over 2 months ago. You can see their reply below - personal details have been omitted as we do not wish to publish where we live or certain aspects of our grief or life as the petition is about rules not about us. Apologies if you do not agree with this retraction as is your right to do so but we feel it is reasonable.
"Good Afternoon,
Thank you for your email.
Dogs are not banned from City of Edinburgh Council cemeteries and there are no future plans to ban dogs from our cemeteries.
However, dogs must be always kept on a lead within our cemeteries.
The most recent committee report regarding dogs in regarding dogs in cemeteries states ‘’Whilst acknowledging the significance of the concerns to the individuals, based on the relatively small number of complaints and the practicalities of enforcing a complete ban on dogs within cemeteries, it is not proposed to revisit or amend the current Cemetery Rules at this time.’’
The report can be found here: Item 7.5 - Cemeteries Update.pdf (edinburgh.gov.uk)
Our staff are continuing to speak with cemetery users when on site and educate dog owners on the cemetery rules.
Kind Regards,"
As is clearly seen there are no plans tonreview or change the rules as the rules were changed in 2022 and reviewed just over 2 months ago.
We understand the other petition isbexploring other avenues so this petition will remain for the time being despite this very clear statement they will not be changed.
We personally wonder whether rules on public spaces should be changed in relation to a petition which clearly does not respect descions on public spaces made by publicly elected representatives. The petition states they are petitioning as people do not respect rules in place yet they do not appear to respect rules and processes which create such rules.