Conversation notes as transcribed by Clelia in August of 2025 for record keeping
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Right, yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Anyway, sorry to drop all that. I just wanted to let you know that I've been thinking about you, and I was so relieved to hear from Mr. Klaxon, Matthew, from the Langley Advance. He sent me this email like, "Hey, I have this family who's interested in speaking to you about the petition. Here's their email." And I jumped on it because I was like, "Finally, I'm so excited. This is now the third person who's reached out to me about this."
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Wow.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And while the other people, it's interesting, I think people are scared because there's two other people that messaged me and I responded, and then they didn't respond back. So I don't know, but I'm just curious to know what your story is and your son and I want to hear more from you.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, I'll do that. I don't know where we heard about, I think I was just looking it up because there's just so many stories online there about the JVA and there's 452 that have signed the petition?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yes. Yeah. I started it 2023. Before I even knew they were shut down, I had some time to myself. I was living alone, and I was really thinking about my past a lot and reflecting, and I was like, I'm realizing that these people had a very negative impact on me, even though it was 10 years ago, I hadn't really processed it because my life had been go, go, go. And I just finally had the mental space to really look at my own history and realize that my life path hasn't been easy because of my health issues. And now I'm older, I'm a lot wiser, and I've thankfully overcome a lot of my addiction related issues. But I'm realizing that I was so desperate then, and I knew something was off about this place, but it wasn't until this year that I saw all these stories and it was so validating to realize that maybe I wasn't just being difficult.
It actually was a really messed up place. And it's been difficult to find the courage because a lot of times when you're up against someone who's way more powerful and connected and has their own center, that's what they did to us. They said, "It's all you. It's all your fault. You're the problem." And it dawned on me over time that some of their tactics were like a cult. Maybe it's because I was raised Catholic, and that's kind of culty too, but I didn't really-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
We're Catholics too.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I mean, no offense to Catholics. I'm used to the jokes about it.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
No, we're not heavy, heavy into it, but that's how we were born.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Same here. That's how we are, I think when we were younger. But over time, it is not that we don't care, I'm going to judge someone because they don't follow the exact tenets of Catholicism. But this place I thought, is it because I'm not Mormon? Why is it that some people are so into it and are like, "Oh, this place saved my life," and then there's others that-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I was searching that year and I found a lot of stuff on Reddit, and a lot of it disappeared. I left there pretty scarred. I didn't stay long, but I was not part of the in-crowd. It's going to be difficult to argue this with a tribunal, but to me, just between you and me, I kind of feel like it was religious discrimination in a way. It seemed like all the people who were super Mormon were doing very well. And I have nothing against Mormons-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Oh, [inaudible 00:05:02]. Yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
But they didn't really tell people before going that there was this certain style either. And I wrote a lot from this petition, but then I compartmentalized, so I have to get back into what I wrote. I have to go reread my own words. It's not that I don't know what I said, but so much time has passed, and it really did impact me because they were really mean. And I thought it was like, oh, it's just because it's part of addiction treatment. But I'm looking back at what I went through with them and it wasn't normal. And I think there are other people who feel this way, but are afraid to bring it up because they don't want to be difficult. And I feel like there's a lot more to unpack here, because when I've read some of the other articles, I'm like, "Yep, that's what they did." And that's not standard treatment.
I feel like what they were doing was very misleading. And I think that they have their really tight inner circle that are like, "Oh, we're great and we've saved people's lives and anyone who doesn't like us, and just lazy, ungrateful addicts." And I think it's far more complicated, and there's a reason it got shut down. I mean, it literally got shut down by the government, so that's a big clue.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
My son was there when it got shut down.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, my son has passed away.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Oh no?!
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Because of all this, I believe.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Oh, God.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
It's been five months.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Oh, god I'm so sorry.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
And I'm just a mess, still.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I didn't know.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah. And one thing, some of the steps there, but they never had anybody pass there before. I can remember my son saying somebody passed there last year, right in the building. But John Volken, have you read some of this stuff online when he closed? My son's name is in a lot of that stuff. They were so upset because he passed, they caused all that shit. And some lady crying boo-hoo but [inaudible 00:07:19]. He saved my [inaudible 00:07:23] savior, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, they mentioned my son in there. So I don't know if you've read all that stuff. There's a lot about [inaudible 00:07:35].
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I think that my search engines are filtered because I've read stuff from the Vancouver Sun and the Langley Advanced Times and one other news source, like the Sierra Nevada Current or something. But I hadn't seen anything about anyone passing away. I did-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
I'll send you that.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, I did hear about some injuries and yes, somebody did die. I didn't realize, was that him?
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Just March 9th he passed, yes. I heard last year, and they said right in one of those news conferences that they had, nobody has ever passed there.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
It's lies.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
And then I remember my son saying last year, somebody passed. And I think maybe a couple of years before that.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I've noticed they have no remorse. And that's what makes me upset is that they completely are covering their tracks. They haven't apologized. I've seen the comments and that's what enrages me. It inflames me. That's why I have to compartmentalize. And I can't even imagine you. It's taken me a long time. I was in a depressive spiral. I had my own suicide attempt 10 years ago after I went there actually.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Oh, my.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Sorry, I don't want to trigger you, but I understand what it's like. I was in a really dark place, and it's only honestly a few months that I've been... I've struggled. And I think that the level of coldness from them and I've seen that on LinkedIn, they're just carrying on like nothing happened. I saw a post of John Volken with some random guy, and they're like, "Yes, we're opening another." They're doing PR like they're still operating. And I think U.S. locations are still open.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
They are, yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And I find that to be problematic, and I've been approaching this very cautious-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Well, especially-
Clelia J. Sheppard:
What?
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah. Especially with the ministry not involved in the U.S. They're just on their own there.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, after John Volken, I went to another treatment center in 2019, and I experienced some harassment from an employee and it's really hard here in the U.S., if you don't have tons of money and all these lawyers, nobody cares. It's shocking. So at least Canada has some accountability, but it came too late. I am willing to go to a tribunal and get organized and have all my thoughts put together and go with other people and demand some kind of, I don't know if you want to call it an apology, restitution. Yes, it's gotten some media attention, but what bothers me is that it doesn't seem like he's, oh, John Vulcan speaks out and says that he doesn't think they did anything wrong.
And then I've seen this stuff on Reddit about how there's been retaliation for people who have spoken out. People don't become these cult kind of places because they have a conscience. They want control, and they have, I think, very low empathy. I met John Volken. I remember being so creeped out by him because I was there and I laughed at something and he singled me out in front of all these people and he is like, "Why are you even here?" He's a cult-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, I've heard a lot about that.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I always thought, wow, he's just doing this because his son had issues and he's trying to help the world. But I think that this is a money funneling thing because it's like a non-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
It sure is. [inaudible 00:12:08].
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I've realized that I'm not the perfect advocate because I struggle with my own health. Sometimes I say the wrong thing. But this guy reached out to me on LinkedIn. I have his contact still, but he's said that he went to one in the U.S. and he sounded a bit like he wasn't doing so well. He was very defensive and he was like, "Well, why do you think a petition is going to do this? It's not going to do anything." And he's like, "I'm building a case against him where I'm proving that he is money laundering and all these tax evasion, all these serious crimes." So I don't know if he's actually going to follow through with it, but some of the accusations he made on my LinkedIn post against John, it's clear that this individual is very upset with the John Volken Academy. I think when it's more recent, for me, it's been 10 years.
The way I felt after I left, I mean, I think it really altered the course of my life. I'll never forget, we had just been forced to make roofs at some random house on an island somewhere. And we were of course doing all this physical work and there was a bonfire, and I remember I was trying to join in and they acted like I wasn't there. They were just really mean.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Really?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah. When you're detoxing from drugs or you're feeling down and your mental health, they don't have support there. They had one physician who I saw for 10 minutes. They didn't want me to take my antidepressant medication. They pretended like they were this treatment center, but really, they were just putting people to work right away-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yep, [inaudible 00:14:21].
Clelia J. Sheppard:
... and they were indoctrinating people. For me, I remember that there was this overwhelming presence of I felt like I was outnumbered and I was like, "Why is everyone here? Mormon and I'm not?" I just felt like most of the stuff, some of the courses, I blurred some of it out. But I remember there was this certain air heaviness to the air and strictness. I don't know, it's hard to put into words, but I knew something was wrong and that the way I was being treated was not normal. And I kind of thought it was just. I guess it made me feel really unwanted and unlovable and used. And like, what did I just get into? And seeing the way some of these articles are talking about how people who wanted to leave, I was subjected to this interrogation. They didn't want you to leave. So it's like they would treat you really poorly and mean and use you for labor, but then they didn't want you to leave, which is another big red flag. With your son, how long did he stay there?
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
He was almost at two years. He had, gosh, November, December, January, he had three months to go and this always going down and everybody was worried about it being closed, blah, blah, blah. But he was one of those ones who got lucky, like you said, and was accepted because he worked his butt off. And there was one guy there, he was from London, and they were really good buddies, but he was brought up on a farm. So he went to him and said, "Why don't you get this bailer?" Blah, blah, blah. So anyway, they got this bailer and this kid from London was in charge. He was the manager of the hay company, and him and my son were running it and stuff. So my son was lucky because he left because it was all his doing, this other kid who brought this whole hay business in, and they wouldn't pay him what he wanted. He didn't want very much, but they just didn't want to pay him anymore.
So he left after he graduated. And so it was given to my son because he knew all the ins and outs, and he did that, I think, from, I don't know, maybe February, March of last year until just now, when they went to him and said something about John Volken's son was going to be the manager, you could work under him. Well, nobody gets along with this [inaudible 00:17:24] name. I don't know. I forget his name, but nobody gets along with him. My son said, "I can't work under him." They said, "Well, you could go move doing the roof company." And he said, "I've done all this work." I mean, the kid was working 12 hours, 13 hours. I could remember him calling at six, seven at night when they started at five in the morning and he's still out on the road delivering. He said, "Oh, I don't care. I'd rather be here than in that place." But yeah, a lot of it was like my son says the same thing. It was just all for the labor, of course.
But at least he got to that point and then at the end they just don't care. That killed him. He left there and he went with that guy who started the business and he said he could live there for a couple of months. Or no, he could live there for two weeks, so we paid him. And then this Chris... You mentioned him, he was really mean to you. Chris something?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I don't know if he still work-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
[inaudible 00:18:28]. He doesn't work there anymore but he said he was very mean. I forget his name. He messaged-
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Szulc
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
... my son and said... Szulc yeah. He went and lived with Schultz for maybe a month or something and he said he'd get him into some kind of, I don't know, not electrician, but something he was going to do, air conditioning something, but [inaudible 00:18:55]=.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Oh, like HVAC.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, HVAC. These big pink bins that he is doing some, I don't know, raising all these [inaudible 00:19:05] these people, Mr. Wonderful now. But anyway, things went bad for Kevin. I think he was doing a few things then. It hit him hard when he left there. It was just sad what they did to him. And then my husband talks to now, who answers the phone is this guy Jay, Jason or something, and he is the accountant there.M y husband's been talking to him and he said to my husband maybe last week, and I just got really angry when he said, "We were just going to take his phone away." My husband said, "His heart was in that. You guys ripped it out of him. Really?" And then that's it. Too bad. Done. So then he [inaudible 00:19:52], "Okay, we're going to pay for the funeral." I go, "I can't even have a funeral. I'm just so upset."
So we didn't, but he sent us money for the funeral and he started all over over his interviews, how wonderful he is, blah, blah, blah. But again, they just don't care. Why would you just do that to somebody? He never ever had counseling in his life there, ever. They all sat in a circle and bitched at somebody. There's one kid that, oh my God, he just got ringed out by, like you said, John Volken right in front of everybody. It's ridiculous what went on too. And the more of that, my husband talks to this guy, just the angrier I get because it's not them, ever them.
Why would you do that to somebody when they're recovering, got three months to go and pull that crap on him? They promised him the job paying him, and he was going to stay there after and take care of that part of the business there. And that was his heart. He loved it. He loved to do that part. He hated the rest, but he loved to do that part. And they just, "Oh no, my son's going to take over," and blah, blah, blah. It's just [inaudible 00:21:11].
Clelia J. Sheppard:
So it's kind of like your son carved out this field with his friend from London, and once they got it established and figured out how to do it, then his family, his son, wanted to kind of butt in and take over?
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Well, I think that's what they said to Kevin when they took it from him is that, "You could work under my son." Well, they know him and my son don't get along. His son doesn't get along with anybody there from what I heard. And he is like 39 or something, but the whole thing is just sickening. You don't do something like that to somebody. You have three months left to go. He was devastated. He wanted to stay in BC. He wanted it so bad. He ended up coming here and overdosing like a month later.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Oh, my God.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, right in his room here. So sad. Yep. So that's my story.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
So what I'm getting is that it actually would have worked, but it felt empty because they didn't follow through. So they promise if you do everything we say, if you're loyal, if you come and show up and work 12, 13 hours a day, what? Six days a week? Maybe one Sunday off doing hard manual labor and also making his institution look good because he has hard, loyal, devoted people. And he-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, and they have customers write in about him. "We love dealing with Kevin," blah, blah, blah. It just makes me so angry. You can't just rip something like that and expect that he's going to be okay. They don't get a crap. Oh yeah, so send him money because you want to look good and put it in the paper. Really? That was something weird to me too. Why are you telling everybody that?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
But I know why they did it because I had called him. I know Doren, he's like the farm manager. I don't know, but I know he is. And so I just went, I'm just going to let you know the first to know because he is a farm manager and I'm sure you'd be happy to know my son just passed away. He goes, "What?" And then he hangs up on me. I called back and I said, "You are chicken shit." He wouldn't even answer the phone after that. So I called the academy itself and this Jason answered. I went crazy on him. Next thing you know, they're sending me money. So I'm in this position now. I'm just feeling... I don't know, I feel like I want to sue them. Not for money. I don't need money. My daughter's a doctor. My son-in-law's a doctor. You know what I mean? I just feel like I'm just so pissed off right now. I can't get over this. It's [inaudible 00:24:24].
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Well, yeah, I mean, my grandmother and my mother, I lost my uncle and my grandmother lost her son. And I know it changes the family dynamic forever because that's your son. The question is when you sue someone, whether it's civil or whatever, it's not because, oh, I want money. It's because this will teach them a lesson. They need to be punished. They need to be held accountable because what are you operating? Are you operating a treatment center and it's about recovery? Or are you just making a business? Look, we're not disabled, but we have sensitivities and issues. If you have mental health, substance abuse, when I called the Canadian tribunal, she says, "Well here in Canada, if you have any history of substance abuse, that's considered a health issue and it's like a disability."
It's not that you need to be babied and coddled, but working someone to death is not the answer. And they're not stopping. They might shut this place down, but have they shut the U.S. ones down? What they want more than anything is for this to all just go away and then they can-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Go away. Absolutely.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah. And I just feel like when you're dealing with people with these big egos, like big shot, have lots of money, think they can just manipulate people, I think that going down that route is for principle as well, because you are trying to make sure that it's in the records officially and that there's more noise about it because it will warn other people who might get similar ideas. Because you'd be surprised by how many were like, "Hey, how much has this guy really profited from the labor of people who are sick?"
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Oh my gosh, yep.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
He's forcing people who are in withdrawal. I remember when I was there, there was a girl who had alcoholism and she was at the bakery baking bread getting burnt on the oven and she was trying to steal the wine. Why would you put an alcoholic in a grocery store that has wine everywhere? She was 22 years old. I mean, come on. They have this great idea that's like, "Hey, we fix addiction by putting people to work." And it really makes other people happy because in that some people have this mindset that all mental health and addiction issues are just because people need to work more. And working people from sun up to sun down is, it might be one strategy, but doing it so relentlessly and then letting people down and offering no affection, no warmth, no compassion, all of it is based on this chess game of loyalty and principle. And people get caught up in it and they want to succeed.
And so they listen and stay and work really hard and they start to think that's normal. I'm not saying working hard is bad, but it depends. What are you really doing? Are they actually getting education? Are they getting anyone to help them? Do they have a bank account? Do they have any networking going on besides doing this really difficult manual labor that's often dangerous?
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Sure, yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And not to mention if you have a drug addiction, mental health, you need education as well about your emotions. You need counseling, you need bonding and group therapy. I'm not saying we have to all sit around and sing kumbaya every day, but there needs to be more stuff for your mind and your brain that is psychosocial education. And that's what bothers me about them is that on social media they're like, "Oh, guess what? We're doing a run together." Or they make it seem like they're-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, oh, we went for one of the runs.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah. They make it seem like, "Oh yeah, the people are so involved in the community." I remember when I was at the grocery store, someone gave me a Bible and they made me throw it away.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Really?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, they give this illusion that you're doing well, you're integrating into society, but you're not really integrating. You are there as a worker and a worker and they treat you kind of like you're nothing. And people are desperate. I think people who have addiction or mental health are some of the most sensitive, empathetic people deep down. And so they go into this environment and they're looking for approval and validation and this man knows that. And he's manipulated people at a very vulnerable state and has given them all these hoops. I read in the articles about people making one mistake and then suddenly they are not allowed to graduate and they have to stay longer and therefore work more.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, but my son got two months thing for, I don't know what, he did something got two months added, you know what I mean? That's what they do. So they keep them longer obviously. And he was taking a course and at the last bit of it, he couldn't even get to it because he was, like I said, working long hours. And the thing of counseling, none. There's none. And he had ADHD, so he'd get meds and all of a sudden, boom, he's off of that. They don't want anybody taking meds.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
It's a small dose for his ADHD and next thing you know, he's not taking that. It's just ridiculous.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, and ADHD is a very misunderstood diagnosis. It's very complicated.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yes.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And there's a lot of depression involved, social isolation. And it makes sense that he would like this outdoor stuff because you are using your body, you're outside. But there comes a limit because when an ADHD person has the right therapy, they can also accomplish really great things too.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Absolutely.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
He wasn't given that opportunity because they put him in a box, they put him in this thing of, you are here to serve us in our business. But they didn't call it that. They said, "This is you getting better." They got a lot out of him, but what was he really getting from them?
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah. Well, I think in his eyes he was getting a job that he might like at the end of the day. But that too is [inaudible 00:31:27].
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Well, it's just they're behaving like a soulless corporation instead of a treatment center. Because if you're a treatment center and you care about the people there and their wellbeing, you don't just promise them and say, "Hey, if you work really hard, you're going to do well." And then you put your heart and soul into this job and then they give it to their son? What? I mean, did they do any mental health check-ins?
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
None.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Nothing. That's what really bothers me is they don't-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
No counseling, no.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
They don't really see people-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, one guy was called a... Sorry.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
No, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
One guy was called a counselor there. He wasn't even a counselor. He was a student there. But how'd he turn into a counselor? You can go to school. I don't understand that.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
That's why I think they need to be sued because they are operating a scam. It's a scam because they make it look all nice on the outside. It's a shell. They are shells because everything looks like, "Oh, we're operating, we're doing this." But they don't understand mental health or addiction. Like you said, if you're wanting a counselor, it needs to be a real counselor, not someone who just and stayed long enough and is now suddenly a counselor. You can be a coach, maybe a life coach, but a counselor is a professional term. And like you said, they go to school, they understand that all of these issues. For me, what really got me is I tend to blurt things out. I have a little bit of that ADHD. I don't know what diagnosis I am at this point, but it's hard. And impulse control is difficult. So then what do they do? You're forced into, what? Staying two more months and working more? It's not prison. He treated people like they were in prison kind of.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
That's true.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Like he's their warden. I remember this feeling of, I felt like the minute I got there, they took all my family pictures away, which to me was a big red flag because I love my parents very much. We've had our ups and downs for sure, but I was like, "Why did you take their photos away? Am I not allowed to think about my family? That's weird."
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And then another thing too is the silent treatment. I don't know if your son ever mentioned that, but I know I went through experiencing somebody who had been there and they're like, I try to say, "Hello, how are you?" And he made this gesture like, "I can't speak." And someone, "Oh yeah, he's on a two-week speaking ban because he said something."
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Oh, my gosh.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I don't know if you've ever read that book Holes where they're digging holes and it was something that here in America we were reading in elementary school.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Oh, yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
It's very much this environment where maybe they cause some trouble in their teens or early 20s, but he really guilts people and I think that's why they stay so long because I remember a lot of kids feeling really depressed because I felt like they were kind of made to feel horrible people for having any kind of mental health or addiction issue when it's not so simple. Yes, you need to be accountable, but also you can't just wag your finger and have this punishing atmosphere. It's like you're in the Volken's bubble and everything they say or do is law.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yes.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Like taking his phone away, I mean, that's what abusive people do. Taking your communication away. Are there any other things though that you could think of that you remember your son saying about things that later on-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
He is the one who told me about a few times when they get in this circle, how Volken would walk in and he'd rip on a person and go off for a long time. And this one person, I know his name was Van, and I actually told him that the petition was up because he wanted to start something because he asked my son. So I called him and I said, "You know what?" So I think he did sign it. I thought I saw a Van. You know how it goes across, it has their names that signed up?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
His name was there, but anyway.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I'll look.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
I guess it just devastated the guy. It was terrible. My son was like, can't believe it. Kevin, he had a big heart, so he hated to see things like that. So he would stand up for him and do stuff, but then he'd get in trouble. So was just a big circle of a mess. I don't know. I think that Kevin too, I knew he had ADHD, but he was out there. He always wanted to be with people, so he would try to get in a group. I mean, he'd get people to go and play. And I just heard this because one of his friends had a memorial for him. We just flew out to BC for it because we didn't have a big funeral here or anything.
So we did that and there's like 20 people and they just had it in a park with a little stream and all these kids came out and they all talk. They did this very big hockey thing, didn't know that he was the thing of it. And so I think he tried to make the best out of everything. They would get to go to a game, so he'd make sure he'd get in there and get the guys, "Let's go and do this or let's go work out." He just wanted to be around people. But the rest of it, I think he just was looking to move on with his life and have things change for himself. As far as all the other stuff he would say they put him in the truck with one sandwich and a drink and a little snack for 12 hours.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Oh, my gosh.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
And so he would say, "Hey, put some money in my account," which I'm sure we weren't supposed to do, but we gave him a little bit extra every week so he could maybe stop and grab a pop or do something. How do you live on one sandwich when you're a guy bailing hay all day?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, he's burning over-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
So, I-
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Go ahead, sorry.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
What's that?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
No, I'm saying he's burning all these calories, that's like nothing. What? That's not enough.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
So I don't know. He never complained much or stuff. We didn't even know when we went there, all the kids were talking. And I think he wasn't a great big complainer about stuff. And some of the stories I'm hearing, of course there was stuff to complain about, but I think he just was trying to fit in.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
They told him that being responsible is being stoic and not breaking down. That's what this 12 steps or anything. I've noticed that all the literature out there to help people who have substance abuse or mental health issues, it's always kind of like, this is all your selfishness coming out anytime you stand up for yourself. And I think that's wrong.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And I think it brainwashes people to erode their boundaries because they're being made to feel like anything they think is because of them being an addict. And I think that's what makes them an easily exploited population. And I've experienced it myself because when you tell people that you have any mental health, substance abuse, it's hard to trust anyone because you realize that there's a world of sharks out there. I'm looking through the names. I saw Van Dinn, I saw his name, and I'm thinking-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
You did?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, who are these people? I see your name. And I think that we have to find a way, if possible, to document and keep track of all of these various egregious... I mean, I don't know. That's where you need a lawyer or advice or time to reflect and really think, "How would a court of law, if you were to take it that far, the tribunal, what would capture their attention?" And there's multiple things. That's what makes it complicated. And it's hard to put it into words because there's so much emotion in it.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Right.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
But I think that what I'm picking up on is that not much really changed from when I was there to when your son was there. In fact, it seems to have gotten worse, and I'm shocked to know that when you called that person and said that your son had passed that they hung up on you. That's very suspicious and cowardly.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
I was screaming though.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
But, come on.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
I was screaming because I was out of control.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, and I think that people who have been there, who are afraid to speak up are probably still in a state of PTSD because they are now learning that a lot of what they were taught was very extreme. Maybe some parts of what they learned were good in theory, but putting someone out to work for 12, 13 hours a day with just a sandwich and a little drink and saying, "Good luck." I mean, it's cruel. Just that alone is pretty cruel.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And my heart goes out to all these people who are now wondering, "What the heck was that?" Because now it's shut down. So it's like, what now? Do they just have some bad press and that's it. I think it's important to find the other people and really specifically get organized about, well, what really happened behind the scenes? Because we have some clues of it, but how do we phrase this in a way that gets etched so that it serves as an example. This is exactly what not to do. And it'd be a warning signal like, this is not okay. There are a lot of manipulated people who come up with these ideas to like, oh, we're a nonprofit and we have a lot of money and we're seeing a loophole here where we can exploit labor and vulnerable people and call it a active community service. And really, it's very self-serving for them.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
And I don't understand the ministry, why they never had counselors. Do they have counselors when you were there? If you were in an addiction treatment center, you'd have to have meds. And here they are, kids running around handing out meds. I'm like, oh my God.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Wait. They had kids handing out meds?
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
They had some guy going around handing out meds, and we got to visit once in June the year before. They didn't have a nurse or anybody, nurse practitioner. It was just some guy who went around giving people their meds. It was weird. I said to Kevin, "What is this?" He goes, "Mom, that's my," he was on a sleeping pill when he first went there, and they just go around and hand it to him. I'm standing there and he just handed it to him. I'm like, "What the hell is that?" He goes, "That's how they do it." They went, "Oh, okay. That's great." That's strange. And that's why I'm thinking why the ministry didn't do something a long time ago, like counselors and meds.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, if someone's on a medication, usually there's a nurse behind a closed window giving it, and it's very controlled.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Absolutely.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
It's not like, "Hey, here's your meds."
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, I mean, anything could happen. Mix it up, give to somebody else. It's silly, that whole-
Clelia J. Sheppard:
The privacy aspect as well as far as medication, mental health.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, [inaudible 00:44:54]. In front of people.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, it's strange. It seems like they were very casual in some regards, but then when it came to the work expected of people, it was very rigid. So it's like, oh yeah, we can cut corners here, but for you all, you can't cut-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, they sure do.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah. And that shows a very manipulative, self-serving agenda and people were harmed. And it's not just the physical harm in the labor, but also the psychological harm of people-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
That's right.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
... feeling over time, they get sucked into this... That's why I keep saying the word cult, because people who go to these places are vulnerable and seeking help. So they desperately want to follow the rules, and these people put rules out there and they fooled everyone because they have money. And it looks like, oh, look, here's this new building, and they have the good website and they look legitimate and it sounds like a great idea. And it's very affordable too, and that's another attractive feature is that it was-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
That's another, yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And so they really have this way of reeling people in and calling it this academy. What is the academy?
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yes, that's for sure [inaudible 00:46:19].
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, is this the academy of self-sabotage where everyone destroys their boundaries to make John Volken feel better like he's doing something for the world?
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And where's the money going? What is he really using? Is this some kind of tax shelter? What are his real motives for this? And then how dare he emotionally keep people on this leash depriving them of real healthcare and mental healthcare and addiction care? And then the minute someone speaks up, they're punished. I mean, come on, this is like Nazi Germany. I just can't believe-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Did you-
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah. Go ahead, sorry.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Oh, you're from the States.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
You're from the States, I forgot because they made him, when he went there, sign on to some assisted living or something. So they were getting money every month from him through assisted living, maybe because he had ADHD. So I was asking when we went to this memorial for him just in April, a girl there, and she said, "Oh, they didn't do that to me." And I'm thinking maybe they got the people that had the problem, you know what I mean? That had a disability and put them on that. Anyway, he was collecting on that until February, and my son was already gone in October. So four months later, he is still collecting his grand a month.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Wow.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah. So I know Kevin had talked to the reporter about that, my husband. And anyway, he called the academy and talked to that Jay, the accountant man or whatever, and he said, "Oh, that was all just a mistake. Oh, we fixed it all now." Four months later that you've taken money that's not yours? It's ridiculous. I don't know how many people they did that to or if that's just the ones with the disabilities. I know the one other girl said they didn't do that to her.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Well, when I spoke to the short service clinic, they said anybody who has any kind of addiction history in Canada is considered disabled technically. You're not in a wheelchair, but it's a mental health disability. And the States, they just throw everyone in prison. It's pretty brutal here for people.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
But why wouldn't they do that to everybody?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, that's interesting.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
I found that strange.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, maybe. I don't know. It could be maybe she wasn't from Canada. I don't know. Sometimes-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, she's raised from BC actually.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Oh, she is.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
But like you're saying, they say it is a disability, the addiction, but maybe she was like Kevin was disabled because he had Disability Ontario, maybe they could, I don't know-
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Well, it could be. I remember-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
... how they figure that all out.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Some people go for unconventional reasons.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
I guess any way to get money.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, no. Well, I remember when I was there, there was a guy that was there who had just lived in his mom's basement playing video games for years on end. And so he wasn't really addicted to substances, but he had social issues, so he needed to go somewhere. Maybe she had another reason that was more, I don't know, similar symptoms of addiction, like the isolation and reckless whatever, maybe she was spending thousands on DoorDash every month. I don't know. But the behaviors that could be an addiction, but it's not substance related. I don't know.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
But I find that to be a huge red flag. And what really bothers me is how people would be put on these speaking bans or your son being punished for having a good heart and standing up for someone and immediately punish them. They can just say, "Oh, well, we take care of it now, it was a mistake," and four months later they fix it. It's like socialism, the rules for me, but not thee. We're creating this really strict environment and giving this illusion of a functional system. But really, the system got exposed over time. I've read the story about the man being gored by a water buffalo.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, actually I met him.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Really?
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
We were there when he was there, but I didn't meet him after that fact because I think he left after that.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, I could imagine so.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, he had kids and everything, so I don't know what happened to him. I didn't hear.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I know it must have been really hard for John Volken's ego to handle all these articles about him, but like I said-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Oh, my gosh.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
... the retaliation was clear and he never said sorry. And then I got really upset. I worked on this a lot, maybe May, April, that I was updating everything and making it more relevant by putting newer stuff in it. Because I was looking on LinkedIn for more information, any other people, I was trying to reach out to people. And then I just kind of gave up because I was like, you know what? I can't force this. If someone wants to come to me, they will. I'm not a lawyer. I didn't want to freak people out. People are traumatized by this place, and I think when they're ready, they'll be ready. But I think the anger part, I can tell I think your anger is very justified and it's very sad because unfortunately for people like John Volken and his wife and their whole inner circle, they won't ever give you that kind of empathy that you crave besides performative, like oh yes, whatever for PR.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
But I think the way I see it is that the Langley Advanced Times, Matthew Clackson has been very instrumental in the coverage. He's been so nice. I saw letters to the editor, like a professor from the area who was saying, "These kinds of practices need to be called out because it's far more sinister." It's hard to break it down and realize, you know what? This really was wrong. And I think that them being shut down is only the first step. That's good, they're not harming other people. Now, the next step is for me, is I want him to be pursued in Canada because Canada has higher standards, I think, than the U.S., because I think if this tribunal goes in Canada, it might raise some more red flags here in the U.S. I don't think the U.S places are any better, but I found that they seem to be more talking about the ones here in the U.S., and-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
They seem to be more?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
No, hush-hush, like there's some secrets going on.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Oh, hush-hush. Oh, okay. Yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
That's what I thought.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Why is it that there's all this attention in Surrey and maybe the location is different, it's actually a ranch, but I wonder what's going on in these places? Will we hear about these places in a couple of years from now?
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, it's kind of scary to think about.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
It is and that's why I feel like I'm approaching it pretty cautiously. For a while I was like, I want to go on TikTok and make a bunch of videos, but now I'm like, I want to wait to hear from more people. I don't want to approach this recklessly because I think that he is a dangerous person. I think he's a dangerous man. I mean, I think anyone who becomes a millionaire, whatever, clearly has some dark triad personality traits.
Part of what makes them successful is being pretty ruthless and never admitting fault. And I think that we have to, I mean, I'm not saying we like I am not saying, oh, you have to do this, but as time passes, maybe by the end of this year we'll get other people and we can come up with a group list of this is why the Canadian Tribunal needs to pursue this on behalf of us because what this man got away with for over a decade is wrong. And I don't think he will stop unless he is called out. And clearly the bad press didn't really, maybe it irritated him, but it didn't break him down enough to say, "I'm so sorry."
People dying, people getting hurt, suicide attempts, depression, people's life courses and expectations. He bit off more than he could chew. He made these grand promises and in the end, he let down so many people because he isn't who he presents himself to be. And I think he wants to be seen as this humanitarian who's making the world a better place.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
A savior [inaudible 00:56:08].
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah. And I think that at the end of the day, he is no better than anyone else.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
That's right.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
The way he was running that place was like a prison camp, really. When I hear about the hours and for no pay either. That's trafficking, that's labor trafficking.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Really, yeah. That's for sure.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And it makes people really depressed because it's like, what was I working for? What was all of that for?
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
I think that's what hit Kevin a lot was all that work I did. He worked and yeah, I don't think he could handle it at the end.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Well, what I get from your son is that he was betrayed because he did everything he could. And he tried his best to hold onto his inner soul and heart and stand up for people. He took his recovery seriously, but they didn't take him seriously enough to actually get qualified help.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Oh, yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And that's what needs to be called out. And honestly, John Volken, I think he deserves to be turned back into a pauper for this. He doesn't deserve to be a wealthy man anymore because he's going to go and cause more harm.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, that's right.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
What's he going to do? Open another place in Germany? All right, I didn't work in the Canadian place. Maybe he's a little older now and he won't do that, but I just feel like if we could succeed in Canada... If it continues to stay in some kind of channel of news headlines like John Volken being sued, I think maybe it might wake some people in the U.S. up like, don't send your kid here. Don't send people you love to this place because what you see on social media and all their happy, that's what really bothered me is seeing all these stories like, "Oh my God, it changed my life."
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Isn't that crazy?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I think that they really lie a lot. So I think that these other stories from other people, I will go and read more about your son's name and what John said. I did so much research on-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
I'll send you a couple of articles.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I think that it's the least that I can do and also the least that the Canadian government could do is to pursue this and that we get other people who have been hurt to have a safe opportunity to say what really happened. Because everyone's going on this journey of one article, this article, that article. And it's like, I think it needs to be more formal and serious than that. Nothing is more formal than an actual tribunal. And that would really put it on the record. He's trying to spin it as this is just liberal, progressive people who don't want... I've seen some of the comments and they really upset me because it seems like he's trying to turn it as to, well, I'm just old-school and this is my approach. And he's like totally deflecting any kind of accountability for the unsafe exploitative environment.
It's been hard. I found a review of some guy that I knew there, Zach Stapley, and then I saw that he left some bad reviews on Yelp. Like, "Oh, I hated this place." And I remember when he was there, he was all gung-ho about it. He was really trying. And it wasn't until years later that he... Everyone seems to get burned.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
That's [inaudible 01:00:12] yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
It's like because they have high hopes and so evil is that he's manipulating people who are really craving hope and he offers this false hope to people. I think it's just awful what's happened. There's more we could talk about because that's why I need to call the short service clinic. There was an appointment mix-up this past week. I was supposed to talk to them again, but I'm worried about them because they're like, "Oh, you have to prove discrimination." I just hate that it's all about discrimination. So it's like, I think how we word this, it's like, because we know bad things happen here that were wrong, but it's like then you have to play into their language. And that's what I would like to think about and process. And hopefully I will take notes on what we've said. I'm not going to say, "Oh, guess what she told me," all this, but I'm going to like re-examine, how do we phrase what we know to be true, to match the language of what would make them take this case?
And that can be difficult because it's like, why do we even have to do this in the first place? They know. It's all over the news what happened. I think another thing too is just... I don't know. I think that they deserve more scrutiny and I think that the job is not done yet and it won't ever really make up for the kind of damage they left. And I hope that maybe some of the people you know that you've spoken to can share some of what... Anyone can call me. I'll call the clinic again because they told me specifically if it's just me and it was 10 years ago, it's likely that they won't. Maybe they would make a special exception, but if there's a group of three to eight people who are all really angry and upset, I think it would be a lot harder for them to ignore.
And that would be, to me, the ultimate victory is all of us working together. And I think it's about justice and it's about accountability for them. I don't think they fully processed. They don't get it and they never will. I don't think they will until it's really-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
No.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I don't know. I appreciate you listening. I'm sorry.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
[inaudible 01:02:56].
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I feel like I've been talking at you. I need to remember to listen more too.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
No, no, no, no. It's good to hear. I've just been really bad lately. Now with all these people signing that petition, do they talk to you? Or this is just something they sign? Are these people willing to... You know what I mean?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I might have written too much because I have nine updates and the petition is really long. I might need to find a way to make it more clear that I want people who sign it to contact me so that we can do this tribunal because I want to go the whole nine yards.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Okay.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And I want these people to work with me, but I also know it's a delicate topic. And again, I'm not perfect at this, but I would love to get to know-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Well, I don't know.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, I want to get to know the people. So now, we've spoken and I have understood more about your reason for signing, and I think the reason I started this petition was just out of desperation because I was like, I want to make some noise and let them know I'm upset, but now I'm thinking this is the start. This is just step one, really.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Right, yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
It was just to a way to say, "Hey, I'm here and this happened." 469 signatures is a lot of signatures, but change.org, I get annoyed that you have to pay to promote it. That really bothers me because I just feel like I'm not going to count on this getting a hundred thousand million signatures, but I don't think it should matter. I think what matters is that we get the attention of the tribunal. I have to do more research about the Canadian government system because I don't know if-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
[inaudible 01:05:02].
Clelia J. Sheppard:
... the court systems are called the tribunal. It might be that we don't work with the tribunal and that it's just more of a group civil lawsuit against them privately. And if we could find a group lawyer, and maybe it would be a lawyer that, maybe they would take a percentage of the settlement one. You'd probably have to get someone on retainer, which could be very costly.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Right, yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
The tribunal is attractive, because it's not about can you pay for a lawyer? It's them personally doing a investigation and-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Investigation, yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
But that's why it's more tricky with a language. I'm just not sure. Some of these names, I'm not sure if these are all names of people who went there or just people who were like, "Yeah, this is wrong, and I agree that this should be called out."
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Oh, I see.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
So I think people sign it just as like, I support this cause and it needs to be talked about. But I'm not-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Oh, I see. I was [inaudible 01:06:15] I was surprised that there's so many. I think, and they're all there or something.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, they care.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
I wasn't thinking about that.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah. I think that it's powerful and it's a lot more than zero. It's just about establishing trust and getting other people who went there to feel safe enough that they can talk to us. I've tried to say, "Hey, join the Reddit group," or I made a Facebook group for it. But nobody's joined. And I think people are afraid to post things online because I don't know, they don't want to complain or they don't want it to hurt them later. So I feel like phone calls, emails, texts, just knowing that I'm doing this because I think this is the right thing to do. And also I'm horrified at what I've learned other people have been through even worse because they stayed longer. And I just think that this guy is a total jerk and he deserves to be way more than just a few bad news articles.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, absolutely.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And I think that there's enough power here and thankfully these stories have gotten out, but my fear is that his little inner circle is trying to discredit people. And that's why I'm like, I want to do this because it needs to be really official. This is not just bad press. This is, it was shut down by the government. People have been seriously harmed. And I hope that if this actually does happen and we succeed, that the U.S. takes notice too.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
That's right.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I've tried to find stuff about the U.S. locations and it's very, like I said, hush-hush. There's not a lot of information and that really concerns me.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Scary. Yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
The guy who reached out to me on LinkedIn, Alexander or something, he was the one who said he didn't go to Canada, but he was in the U.S. and I can send you a screenshot of what he said, but it was terrifying.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Wow, really?
Clelia J. Sheppard:
He was making some pretty serious accusations. He was saying that there was, I don't know. I'm not going to take it total heart because we never spoke. That's why I love that we're speaking now because now I can hear your voice. I know that you're a real person and I know that you've been through a lot, whereas this guy didn't want to talk to me on the phone. And I'm like, I don't bite, but I'm old school whereas I was just like a phone call versus-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
For sure.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
... because you don't know people without at least hearing their voice.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Right.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
But anyway, I have this book of poetry that my grandmother wrote when she lost her son. And if you want, I can send it to you because I know that this conversation, I mean it will help, but I can't imagine how angry you must feel right now.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
And I would love to let you know that in the best way, I can be there for you and help you and let you know that you're not alone in your anger towards them. And I'm really glad that we spoke and-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, thanks for your time. That's really [inaudible 01:09:51]. So anything-
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
No, that's okay. Go.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I feel like, yeah, now my aunt is, she's like, "Oh, what are you doing?" So I better go make sure because she's only here for this weekend.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, go enjoy.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
I'm totally open to speaking again, but also feel free to text me, "I don't want to talk about this now. It's not a good time." I never want to make you feel like I am crossing any boundaries. But I think we could accomplish a lot together and I'm just really glad we spoke.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yes, me too. Makes me feel better. So I will speak to a few people too. I know the one girl really well from BC that put on the memorial for my son. So I'm going to speak with her and see what she has to come up with, see if she'll sign that petition and even to get in touch with you.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, I think that would be really good.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
And see what else comes out of that, yeah.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
We're stronger together.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
So, I'll do that.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Yeah, I think we're really a lot stronger together and the more we get to know each other and put it in words, I think that will get the attention.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, for sure.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
All right. Well, we'll talk soon and I hope that you-
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Okay.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Thank you also, for your time.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Yeah, thank you Clelia. I appreciate that.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Okay, all right. Bye.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Keep in touch.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Okay, we will.
Dawn Johnston (Victim's Mother):
Okay, thanks. Bye-bye.
Clelia J. Sheppard:
Bye.