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Dana Cash
I am a generation Y college graduate. I am a history geek and a historical reenactor. I joined the Roman Catholic Church seven years ago and have been discovering the richness of the faith ever since. I hope to be a beacon for hope and peace as well as a voice of reason.
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Dana commented on the article |Thank you, Flannery, for bringing us back to the original issue. I have been guilty of going off on my own rabbit trails and am glad to see someone bringing us all back.
If someone wants to meditate on different mysteries while praying the rosary, in the privacy of their own home, obviously that is their prerogative. However, these mysteries were taught to many as if they had some sort of Church approval. At best, this was unwise. At worse, it was disrespectful.
To address Miss Lightoller, no one who has an immortal soul is ever "written out" of salvation according to the Christian definition. Only those who write themselves out are ever out. The Devil himself cannot take your soul against your will, not with a host of a million demons. Only the soul itself can rebel against and deny itself salvation.
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Dana commented on the article |
Mr. McHugh,
Upon this point, I believe I shall agree to remain in respectful disagreement.
I am familiar with James Dobson's name and some of his work and am not aware of any work he has done to promote violence towards homosexuals or anyone for that matter. Perhaps I have been out of the loop; the other names are unknown to me, but I will see if I can find any information.
I have never denied anyone what I believed was fair and just. I am not in any sort of position of power to do so.
It is likely that some churches do teach intolerance. I have never entered one... and I have been in many many churches, both Protestant and Catholic. I never said that intolerance or hatred is not ever preached. It is. What I said was that the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church does not advocate intolerance OR hatred. If some individuals take pronouncements to be carte blanche for violence, that is their responsibility.
Forgiveness is asked for sins committed. According to the Roman Catholic Church, extra-marital and deviant sexual activity is sinful. Obviously you disagree with that definition or you would not be so upset. Just because I agree does not mean it is my business to judge the souls of others. Souls are free to accept that definition of sin or not. If I am wrong, I'm wrong. If I am right, I am right. Neither outcome makes me a better or worse person.
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Dana commented on the article |
As far as I understand, a lifestyle includes sexuality. If you are unmarried and celibate, then your lifestyle is a celibate one. If you are unmarried or married and promiscuous, your lifestyle includes promiscuity. If you are a single or commited or married person who engages in either heterosexual or homosexual activity, then your lifestyle would be somewhat defined by this.
I agree that suicide for strong reasons is a tragedy, however I must disagree that the Church teaches that sexual deviancy makes a person worthless. As a matter of fact, the parable of the lost sheep claims that those who wander from the path make heaven more grateful for their return than those who never stray.
The Church is meant to be a hospital for sinners, a fount of mercy. Some deluded souls enter this hospital and immediately go out to make sinners' lives miserable, forgetting that they too have ever sinned. A person who engages in homosexual activity is as worthy of forgiveness as any other contrite soul... perhaps more so.
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Dana commented on the article |
My apologies for my whimsy. Sometimes I let it run away with me. The examples were not meant to be taken as hard evidence, but as proof that not all laws are seen as perfectly "fair" by all parties. A fourteen year old boy who goes out joy-riding may find it unfair that he has a ticket. A child who wants to eat junk food may find it unfair to be denied. The denial of certain rights in both of these cases is seen by those who make the laws as the best thing for the teen and the child.
The inequality I was trying to display was the discrepancy of age. Children under eighteen have different rights than those older. We accept this difference without question. Whether considered right or wrong, there is a difference between heterosexuality and homosexuality.
Obviously you and I disagree on the normalcy of homosexuality and bisexuality etc. You believe it is normal and I do not. I am unlikely to convince you in this thread and you are unlikely to convince me of a different position. While I disagree with your stance, I have a great deal of respect for your persistance. I hope you will forgive my lapses into whimsy and accord me the same courtesy.
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Dana commented on the article |
I stand corrected on the domestic partnership issue. Thank you for checking the facts!
I'm afraid this thread has meandered very far from the original issue and I will take most of the blame for the current meandering.
I will also agree that homosexual couples can and often are loving.
It has not been an easy lesson, but I am learning that I can disagree with people, even those who are loving and those whom I love. It isn't always convenient. I'm sure that the people who disagree with me find the disagreement most inconvenient... a bur in the saddle. I will apologize for being a bur and hope that some sort of respectful understanding can be reached.
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Dana commented on the article |
I will echo Fr. John's apology.
I have never considered myself "smug and self satisfied". Everyday life is a struggle for every person and for one person to believe their personal struggle is worse than another's is to be indeed smug even in trials.
The moral code which the Church asks its adherants to follow is not one which everyone agrees with. Those who wish to be members adhere or end up bringing scandal to the Church. This would be true whatever religion one chose to be. It is true that the moral code required by the Roman Catholic Church is not one which everyone thinks is fair. So be it.
I am not in any position to give permission to anyone to pray the rosary. I recently heard of some folks who are hit men who pray to a supposed apparition of Mary who gives them protection and supposedly blesses their killing. While I disagree with them, I am not in any position to stop them, nor would I if I was, simply because I would be violating their free will. Would I tell them why I disagree? Absolutely, if they wanted to know.
That's why I'm here. I'm not pope, don't want to be. I'm not a saint, though God could perform a miracle and actually get me to heaven.
You are quite right that many traditional Catholics are mean spirited. I happen to know several who are kind and loving... gasp in shock. You have every right to feel hurt and to be angry if such is your desire. And I have every right to state my position in a calm manner. I have no personal animosity for you or any other person who has left the church. It makes me sad that they could find no way to "work things out", but life is full of such tragedies.
I am not a homophobe, because that would indicate that I am afraid of homosexuals, perhaps so violently so that I would consider violence towards them. This is obviously not the case, since I have decided to try to have a reasonable discussion, as flawed as I am. I don't fear homosexuality. I disagree that it is the correct lifestyle, but that does not constitute fear. I have homosexual individuals among my friends and family and I love them very much, despite our differences and the fact that I do not endorse their lifestyles.
I agree that the rosary is for everyone. What is under debate, if anyone remembers, was whether it was appropriate for the LGBT community to try to promote their "queer" mysteries. I feel they should not, though I can understand the many reasons that they did so.
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Dana commented on the article |
I am not making fun of you, Mr. McHugh. I have a light-hearted style and perhaps I have been too flippant. I hope you will accept my apology.
As to the fact that homosexual young folk kill themselves, this is a tragedy. The fact that any of them kill themselves because of their grievances against the Church only makes it that much more of a tragedy. It is not enough, however, to make me abandon my Church.
There have been suicides caused by children whose expensive shoes were stolen or because they believed a comet was going to beam them up to the mother ship. This wouldn't stop me buying shoes or looking up at comets and other astronomical wonders.
I abhor anyone who would beat up, rape, or kill anyone because of their sexual orientation or for any other reason at all. This isn't enough to make me agree with their lifestyle. Just because someone is attacked does not mean I must agree with their behavior or their beliefs.
I happen to know quite a few homosexual people, even in my family. If anyone were to harm them because of their sexuality, I would be outraged and denounce the action. My love for them goes deeper than agreeing or disagreeing with their lifestyle.
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Dana commented on the article |
Question:
If a mother or father deny equal rights to their children and do not allow them to eat a bunch of junk (which is what they love, after all), are they showing hatred? If a fourteen-year-old boy gets pulled over by a cop for driving illegally, is the cop showing hatred? We are not all equal under the law, even little laws that govern households. If we are to take absolute equality to its ulitmate conclusion, we arrive at anarchy. Does this mean that certain inequalities are not wrong? No! But the point of studying law, ethics, etc. is to determine which rights are absolutely equal and how much equality is to be sacrificed for order.
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Dana commented on the article |
You are so right! We do not live in a theocracy. We barely live in a democracy. Our government, since the seventies, if not before, has been becoming ever so subtley socialist, yet not blatantly so.
As for an anti-christ, the verses which refer to anti-christ actually refer to several people, whoever is anti-Christ. If the Church therefore becomes Anti-Christ, you are quite right that it will self-destruct. I have the audacity to believe that this self-destruction will not occur and you would be very right in finding that ironic. Cheers!
I am sad that you feel I am ignorant of reality. I am more than aware that there are people within the Church who have an incorrect view of marriage. These unfortunates also tend to have a lot of other incorrect views on life, sexuality, religion, ethics, etc.
I used the other religions as an example to show that the Catholic Church is hardly the first and certainly not the last to "deny equality" in your definition. Some of these denials have negative results, though some have positive. I read once that certain Aztec tribes would not allow a man to be sacrificed who had a family. This was an inequality that spared married men and fathers from dying, even though the tribes believed that the blood was required by the gods.
It is also prudent to understand that the Church's definition of marriage is not about to change simply because a secular law may change. If homosexual marriage becomes legal, the Church may recognize the legality of the union, but will not define it as legitimate in the Church's definition.
I fully understand that you and I are coming from opposing points of view. My purpose is not to convince you that I am right, but to let you know what my position (and the position of many others) is. Ignorance of opposing viewpoints leads to intolerance and bloodshed and that will not do. This is why I came on these threads in the first place: to let a different point of view be heard and hopefully respected. I may not agree with you, but I will defend and honor your free will to disagree with me.
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Dana commented on the article |
Good! Now, may I also ask:
How, in your view, are homosexual individuals given unequal rights? In which areas? Are there busses in which they must ride in the back? Are there signs on restaurants that say: "No queers allowed"?
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