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Kerwin Kaye
New York, NY
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Kerwin signed the petition | -
Kerwin commented on the article |Jamie writes: Statistics show that there are many more people in prostitution like the people Kathy knows, over the people you know. It's just what the statistic's say.
No, they don't show that, for reasons that Weitzer goes over very carefully. I agree that Weitzer is "biased" (though isn't everyone?). I nevertheless agree with his critiques of the sorts of statistics you seem to be referencing. These stats overwhelmingly come from street-based populations or from people interfacing with service organizations. Without implying that all off-street scenes are perfect, it seems clear that parts of the street scene are the most violent, and often where the most desperate folks work. Other than saying "Melissa Farley is right," I don't believe you have addressed Weitzer's substantive points in any way. If you looked at his article, he cites statistics from the few studies that did *not* rely upon this flawed methodology, and the numbers look quite different.
But I have to reiterate something I wrote earlier: there seems to be no way to convince you of anything, even the most basic of facts (like that women in the legal Nevada brothels are not literally being held hostage). It's scary that policy makers have often shared this completely distorted view, resulting in harmful policies.
In the meanwhile, the *real* sex slaves are found in "nice" families where sexual abuse continues to exist in a big way. Why devote so much more attention to sex trafficking in prostitution when it's clear that there is much, much *much* more sexual abuse within the home?
You may take this as a side point, but I think it is somewhat central: prostitution is stigmatized, so it's possible to say anything terrible about it and be believed. But the family is automatically good, so anything bad that happens there must be an exception. The reality, again, is that there is much more "sexual slavery" in the home than anywhere else, so what about it? -
Kerwin commented on the article |
I have to say, this is a bit nuts. You write that "sometimes you just have to be there," but Farley is a classic example of "helicopter research" in which one goes in, does a fast survey, and then leaves. Brent has been studying brothels in NV for years, but you give her no credit to even be able to see when something is literally a "hostage situation" and when it is nothing of the sort. You have *such* a bias against prostitution that you are willing to believe anything about it, even that someone is being eld hostage when they are not. You began by saying that Farley and Weitzer are equally biased, which is probably true enough, but the manner in which you address the substance of their methodologies reveals your own bias. I simply don't believe it would be possible to change your mind via an internet chat like this.
This conversation began with a discussion of Kathy's experiences. I have not witnessed the scene Kathy describes, and I have no doubt that it is extremely unpleasant. I *have*, however, seen many other scenes that are decent, and others that are positively good (and not just amongst people who are completely peripheral to everything else). I always argue for diversity whereas you seem convinced that any diversity that exists is completely minimal and beside the point. All I can say is, it's not.
Equally as important, I am concerned about the types of interventions that get developed based on faulty images about "what is wrong with prostitution," even when there *is* something wrong with the particular scene. Prostitution is sometimes described as "paid rape," for example, and indeed, some people experience it that way. The young guys on the street that I did research on most certainly did *not* see it that way - not a single one of them said anything remotely like that - yet they still had many problems and could have used good services. Very simply, all of the services were designed to get the guys out of prostitution, and if they didn't accept that they got very little. Some guys did want out of prostitution, and those services worked well for them. Those that did not wish to stop prostitution were left behind like trash. What of additional services for people who do not wish to be "rescued"? What of harm reduction services, housing, *condoms*, etc etc etc? These are things that can make a concrete difference in peoples' lives, yet when the focus is solely upon "rescue" - and who could possibly recommend anything else if nearly all prostitutes are indeed "hostages" - there is no opportunity to do anything but send in the (mostly very hostile) police.
This is part of the reason I insist upon the diversity of experiences within prostitution. It's not just to say "Hey, it's not all bad!" That's true - it's not all bad. But perhaps even more important is the fact that when it *is* bad, it's not always bad in the way you are thinking. "Helpful" interventions based on faulty images can - in some cases - make the situation worse. People get "rescued" against their will, border controls become tighter, police raid brothels and deport *many* more people than they save. Again, I think it is essential that we see the diversity of problems that exist - as well as cases that are actually positive - so that we can design interventions that are not based on faulty premises.
I fear you, Jamie. I fear you will self-righteously harm people in the name of doing good. Just, please, think about that.
A final point: as I have said time and again, I think decrim is not the primary intervention that people need - it might be helpful, and especially helpful for higher end escorts - but I do not see it as the #1 priority for people working in the most negative circumstances (on street or off). However, even in these cases, I do not see the abolitionist policy suggestions as helping. Yes, there are some people who need to be "rescued," people who need the police to arrest their abusers, but this is not the only need that people in dire situations who are doing sex work have. They guys I studied were often underage runaways on the street. Legally speaking, they were "trafficked" (anyone doing prostitution while under 18 is "trafficked"), yet not a single one of them had a pimp. Two out of about 80 had older boyfriends who helped them prostitute, but in both cases they prostituted as well (not the typical "pimp-prostitute" relationship, though still an abusive relation). What does the rhetoric of "anti-trafficking" offer these guys? Nothing. Worse than nothing. It makes their concerns "an exception" ("Well, those are guys."). Well, not all women have pimps either, yet they may still have needs, needs that cannot be met by the police. Needs that may require a change in housing policy, for example, or welfare policy. What is "anti-trafficking" doing about that? Nothing! Less than nothing! "All prostitutes need is a friendly police officer who will rescue them, followed up by intensive 'deprogramming' from a social worker." That's how I see the abolitionist model. It is inadequate and often even harmful. It is based on a myopic understanding about what prostitution is, and Jamie, you share that same myopia, my friend. I fear you and this entire "anti-trafficking" framework that change.org is promoting. -
Kerwin commented on the article |
Here are two additional items, one a critique of Farley's work, while the other is a middle-of-the-road examination of prostitution in Nevada's legal brothels that (with any luck) you will agree is not as "biased" as Weitzer. http://faculty.unlv.edu/brents/research/Stereotypes%20Brothels%20ASA06.pdf
http://deepthroated.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/review-of-prostitution-and-trafficking-in-nevada-making-the-connections/ -
Kerwin commented on the article |
Listen, I am glad that you checked it out, but you are not addressing the substance of what he said in any way. There's no possible way I could find a written piece that addresses every single statistic that's out there. Weitzer's essay addresses mistakes that are *nearly ubiquitous* in the literature. Unless you're willing to engage on the substance of what he is saying - rather than simply citing Farley's alleged authority and Weitzer's bias (is anyone who criticizes Farley going to be dismissed as "biased"?) - we've got no way to move forward in this discussion.
And no, by the way, Farley's statistics are *not* widely accepted within academic circles, precisely because of the many errors that Weitzer cites.
Perhaps the following website will be of interest. Check out especially the critiques of Farley, and the "debates" section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Farley#Criticism_of_Melissa_Farley -
Kerwin commented on the article |
again, check out Ron Weitzer's critique....
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Kerwin commented on the article |
Actually, I just looked again and saw that the stats come from Melissa Farley, who definitely gets her stats in the way I suggested. The sociologist Ron Weitzer has written critiques of these stats: http://www.sexworkeurope.org/site/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=28&Itemid=198
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Kerwin commented on the article |
Just one set of stats from above that I'd like to address: those pertaining to age. Here's what is posted: Average age of entry: 14-16 yrs
Average mean age: 31 Average years in prostitution: 11 Percent younger than age 18 at entry: 42%
First of all, it would be great if the author would provide some citations, so one could look into these things, but these stats simply don't add up. If the average age is 31, and the average years in prostitution is 11, then average age of entry should be 21, not 14-16.
Usually these stats come from data gathered on the street (gathered either directly on the streets or through service agencies that serve street workers). I'll say it again and again: people working on the streets represent only around 15% of prostitution. So while the stats may represent something important happening in one sector of the industry, it is not the full picture of "prostitution" (much less "sex work" which includes dancers, phone sex operators, etc). Usually the stat given for "average age of entry" is 14 - that is given out by the Department of Justice. That stat is disturbing, but a little less so when one looks at the details: it's the avergae age of entry *for juveniles*. No one over 17 was included in the stats. Even given this, 14 is disturbing - in my own work with underage guys doing prostitution, I saw no one under 16 and the youngest I even *heard* about from other service workers was 13. Still, 14 is possible within a certain scene, no doubt, but it does not represent everyone, not by a long shot. These types of shoddy stats are passed around and believed because of the numerous stereotypes about sex workers - how traumatized they are, how horrid their lives are - and while those stories do represent some peoples' experiences (and we should absolutely make sure to address these problems at a political level), their are plenty of other people who either treat prostitution as (a) a shitty job, but at least one that pays well and that is no more shitty than other lousy jobs, (b) a personal exploration, (c) a good job that pays very well and that allows lots of free time. We are lost unless we start seeing the diversity of sex work/prostitution, finding ways to develop policies that are beneficial at all the various levels. -
Kerwin commented on the article |
Where do you get this 95% figure from? For starters, 85% of prostitution is off-street, and while this does not directly correlate with lack of victimization (as has been pointed out), conditions off the street are generally better than conditions on the street (with exceptions on both sides).
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Kerwin commented on the article |
Sealing records? OK, but what about not being arrested in the first place?
Perhaps a larger discussion about the appropriate role for the police - since that is what crim/decrim comes down to - would be in order? But again, to me police policy should only be one element in a much broader picture.
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