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Reader SouthCarolina
Charleston, SC
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Reader signed the petition | -
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Reader commented on the article |Evidently there was a payoff to her years ago, $50K. She said all this now is detrimental to her husband, her children, her job and she would just like to let it go. She has the media campled out in front of her house and probably following her to work.
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Reader commented on the article |Way to project your thoughts on someone else......
Where does Amy write, say, or tell what you say you READ in her article:
"....TELLING her that if she hadn't gotten drunk, she wouldn't have been raped." I could not find that.
The multitude of what comment makers have said "she said" is ridiculous. Interpretation is left to the reader and why can we not accept we do not all agree with the horrible accusations being made given what was ACTUALLY written? No she did not tell her what you said she told her, and no she never wrote "you asked for it" as some have said she said. Let's give it a break? Amy said, "no matter what, no means no" and that is good enough for me to refrain from calling her a rape excuser, or the other disgusting accusations that are far closer to false than to true.
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Reader commented on the article |
You say: "The only criteria is that NO MEANS NO, period, regardless of circumstance."
Ms. Dickinson wrote in her response to the victim regarding all of the circumstances including the alcohol issue: “No matter what - no means no."
Can you at least give the woman credit for saying that? Or is there a difference in the statements that I am missing?
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Reader commented on the article |
I am assuming seeing a counselor would help her to take the proper steps to prosecute this boy. The girl obviously needs counseling as she is unclear as to what rape is and I doubt she will call the police. The counselor, who is trained to deal with rape victims, will help clarify things for this girl and allow her to claim her rights and confidently say, "I was raped" and to prosecute.
So when Amy writes the following she is treating this as something between rape and no rape? She is not leading her to prosecute a rape? If not, please tell me what she is saying.
“Go to your college's health department to be tested for STDs and pregnancy. See a counselor to determine how you want to approach this.” She clearly advocates consequences for the boy: “You must involve the guy in question in ….because he absolutely must take responsibility and face the consequences for his actions…. he may have done this before." Amy Dickinson does not make a claim for the boy’s culpability in terms of his drunkenness, she writes “No matter what - no means no. If you say no beforehand, then the sex shouldn't happen. If you say no while it's happening, then the sex should stop.
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Reader commented on the article |
What are the exact words she uses to which you so object; not your reading between the words, but the actual words?
You do not believe Ms. Dickison has a column that reaches far more people than yours and uses it as an opportunity to educate? Even rainn.org has the 10 tips for going back to college and avoiding sexual assault.
I am just intriquied with your thinking given what Amy actually says in words.
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Reader commented on the article |
I don't know where all the previous comments are, but this one is worth repeating if one wants to be fair and give equal time:
I think what's most essential here Ruth (the blog poster), is that you take a bad approach to making your point in your response. We all have a responsibility--and you, particularly as a journalist--to carefully justify our outrage. (Your outrage in this case is that Dickinson misemphasized her advice; is this a reason for asking that she lose her job? I would hope that we'd not be so casual about asking for people to lose their livelihoods.) By giving an uncharitable reading of Dickinson's response--showing that your anger kept you from a careful reading and response--you have lost the sympathy of half your audience, even on this selective set of readers. To my mind, this rightfully so. Constantly inflaming and spinning the debate takes us away from the rational, respectful dialog that is needed in a democracy where we seek to build consensus, not collect the heads of our enemies.
I think a more successful approach that would NOT compromise the seriousness of your message--one that every last single person here would be prepared to join you on--would be to recognize what value that Dickinson had to say, but argue strongly for a reemphasis. Calm, ordered, unsensational dialog. The only thing that that compromises is your desire to have someone, anyone, lynched.
Very sincerely, Nick
posted by Nicholas Mader -
Reader commented on the article |
(The words in quotations are Amy’s exact words.) I think one needs to keep in mind that Amy is being read by a multitude of people and as such she is aware her answer is going to be read by many and therefore often expounds on educating the masses just as Dear Abbey used to do. She is warning others, not blaming the victim, and she does go on to advise the girl, as a victim, how to get support for her physical and mental well-being: “Go to your college's health department to be tested for STDs and pregnancy. See a counselor to determine how you want to approach this.” She clearly advocates consequences for the boy: “You must involve the guy in question in ….because he absolutely must take responsibility and face the consequences for his actions…. he may have done this before." Amy Dickinson does not make a claim for the boy’s culpability in terms of his drunkenness, she writes addresses/defines rape and no excuses for alcohol: “No matter what - no means no. If you say no beforehand, then the sex shouldn't happen. If you say no while it's happening, then the sex should stop.”
When someone asks, Was I a victim (of rape) which is a serious crime it should be addressed by a professional other than a “Dear Abbey” type columnist; however she chose Amy. I have no doubt that the venerable Abbey would have answered in the same way (i.e., educating the public and also addressing the serious needs of the girl.) Amy says she hopes the letter is posted on every campus to alert college girls as they are 4 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than any other group (rainns.org). It is a serious cultural problem. But she also definitely pointed out to the public, and therefore the girl, that “No matter what – no means no.”
The girl wrote questioning if she had been raped; Dickinson sent her to an excellent source that will help to clearly define things for her and told her where to seek counsel.
Amy never says what the blogger, Ruth, says she says. Ruth is reading between the lines with her own out of control spin. If one only reads the blogger’s words of rage one would expect that Amy said, “it’s your own darn fault for being stupid and if you were drunk and went to “some guy’s” room, you got what you asked for, you can’t blame the boy, only yourself. That is certainly what I expected when I looked up the original column at the Chicago Tribune, but instead I was truly outraged with this blogger for making a mountain out of a mole hill. If she wanted to make some comments or suggestions, fine, but not an indictment of this magnitude (i.e., Dickinson should be fired)??
I wish Ruth had shown in quotes what Amy really wrote and directly addressed Amy’s words. Her argument would have fallen apart.
This just reminds me too much of Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and Sarah Palin.
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Reader commented on the article |Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000208 EndHTML:0000014745 StartFragment:0000004382 EndFragment:0000014709 SourceURL:file://localhost/Users/lindachurch/Documents/I%20think%20your%20vengence%20towards%20Ms.doc Normal 0 0 1 908 5181 43 10 6362 11.1282 0 0 0
I think your vengeance towards Ms. Dickinson is outrageous, and I hope she sues you for twisting her words and “interpreting” her thoughts.
You write: Straight out the gate she tells the writer that she is indeed a victim -- of poor judgment.
No, straight out the gate Dickinson says, “Dear Victim?: First of all, thank you. I hope your letter will be posted on college bulletin boards everywhere.”
You write: Dickinson essentially claims that a woman has a good chance of getting raped if she's drunk at a frat party……….
She uses her column as a platform to say what she would hope students everywhere would read. Obviously she has been to the rainn.org website that states college age women are 4 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than any other group. Does rainn offer suggestions to avoid risky behavior? Yes. Does that mean woman are responsible for their own sexual assaults? No.
Dickinson writes: “Were you a victim? Yes. First, you were a victim of your own awful judgment. Getting drunk at a frat house is a hazardous choice for ANYONE to make because of the risk (some might say a likelihood) that you will engage in unwise or unwanted sexual contact.” She is taking this as an opportunity to make a public service announcement to everyone as a warning to be careful about going to frat parties, getting drunk, and going to “some guy’s” room. Yes, getting drunk can make one engage in activities one might not normally engage. Both girls and boys do get drunk and regretfully engage in what would normally be unwanted or unprotected sex. The remorse and guilt is awful. But Dickinson is still not talking about this girl’s particular incident.
You write: Oh sorry -- Dickinson doesn't even call it rape. She euphemizes it as "unwanted sexual contact.”
Attack it as you like, rainn calls it sexual assault. Is that a euphemism as well? You better getter petition against them too for minimizing the seriousness of rape.
You write the author claims the girl “is to blame for the assault.”
You may “interpret” what she says anyway you like, but the fact is she never, ever says to the victim she is to blame for the assault; that came from you. Pointing our poor judgment and identifying risky behavior is not blaming the victim.
Note, too that Dickinson says, “Yes, FIRST, you were a victim of…” which to me clearly implies a SECOND yes in which she is saying the girl was a victim of rape (“if it was not consensual and she said, “No”) which happens to so many young girls in colleges; date rape or otherwise Girls who are not careful of where they go or with whom they go.
Then you really go off the deep end in your “interpretation” of things that are not said.
You write: Dickinson never once acknowledges that what the guy did was wrong. What are you thinking? Did you read what she wrote?
Dickinson writes: You must involve the guy in question in ….because he absolutely must take responsibility and face the consequences for his actions…. he may have done this before. She clearly advocates consequences for the boy!
Dickinson writes addresses/defines rape and no excuses for alcohol: “No matter what - no means no. If you say no beforehand, then the sex shouldn't happen. If you say no while it's happening, then the sex should stop.” According to the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network Web site (www.rainn.org).”
The girl wrote questioning if she had been raped; Amy is sending her to a source that will clearly define things for her.
You write: In effect, she's equated getting drunk at a party with "asking for it.” Again, that is your interpretation and I think you have really gone overboard on this. What is so wrong in alerting young people of what is happening on college campuses? Rape, date or otherwise, is running rampant and girls don’t want to report it. As you said, these situations do not look good in court when the girl was in the guy’s bed. That is not “asking for it” that is impairing your judgment with alcohol and ending up somewhere you don’t want to be. Would you not talk to your daughters about the dangers of going off to parties and getting so drunk that you can’t realize you are being raped and/or getting so drunk that you can’t scream for help or to fight back. Is that not risky behavior? That is not the same as your crude remark that she basically tells this girl she was “asking for it.” It’s saying one needs to be careful.
You write: Dickinson later adds insult to injury by implying that whether the guy was drunk or not qualifies his level of culpability.
Dickinson writes: “You don't say whether the guy was also drunk. If so, his judgment was also impaired.”
You choose to interpret that as Dickinson measuring culpability? Again, did you read what she wrote? Dickinson writes: “No matter what - no means no. If you say no beforehand, then the sex shouldn't happen. If you say no while it's happening, then the sex should stop.” She never at any time says, “well, you were both drunk” or anything to the effect of what his drunkenness might or might not mean. That’s in your head.
You write: When she finally offers the writer information from RAINN’s website about how alcohol and drugs are not an excuse for rape, it comes off as a begrudging formality, given that it directly contradicts her previous statements.
Comes off as a begrudging formality? Could you elaborate on what makes it come off that way? If it was so painful for her, why would she offer it?
Contradicts what previous statements? Please, what are the statements rainn.org will contradict?
The girl wrote questioning if she had been raped; Dickinson send her to an excellent source that will help to clearly define things for her.
The rest she writes is the opposite of “dismissing” her. She is telling her how to get support for her physical and mental well-being: “Go to your college's health department to be tested for STDs and pregnancy. See a counselor to determine how you want to approach this.”
As far as determining “what happened” we don’t know, only the girl and the boy, and for some reason even the girl is not sure; however Dickinson never says or implies “you got what you asked for.”
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