Login to Change.org
Create an Account
Recent Activity
-
J commented on the article |What does that mean, Arno? Does it mean that we're supposed to ignore what's going on in Palestine? Maybe if the Palestinians weren't getting bombed and massacred, they would be able to do a lot more about what's going on in Darfur.
It's very offensive when people try to compare situations. I don't like comparing because it's as if you're discrediting or downplaying someone else's experiences. Yes, Muslims are killing Muslims in Darfur, but we're talking about Gaza in this particular post. Deal with one topic at a time. If you want to talk about Dafur, we can, but please leave out your generalizations about Arabs.
Do you know every single Arab in the world? No, so how do you know Arabs don't say anything about Darfur? We have fundraisers at our Mosques and there are plenty of Muslims who attend the Walk for Darfur events in their major cities.
It's like if an Arab girl in the United States gets beat up in a hate crime, the police officer says to her, "well hey, you Arabs commit genocide against Africans." Does that make any sense at all to you? Deal with every subject individually. Don't make comparisions in order to downplay someone else's. As one of my friends put it: "what is this? Oppression olympics?"
I suggest that you check yourself and make sure you don't have racial issues that you need to work out. -
J commented on the article |Steven,
You are trying to make Iran out to be the "boogie man" just like David is. Iran is obviously antagonistic towards Israel's military occupation of the Palestinians (like most of the Muslim world is). You don't mention the other things like Jewish Iranians protesting in the streets of Iran against the Israeli attacks on Gaza. What does this tell you? It tells you that this is not a war on religion.
If these terrorists wanted people to convert to Iran then you wouldn't see any Christians and Jews in the rest of the Muslim world. You're generalizing and simplifying a very complex situation. Rather than looking at how Western and Israeli occupation of Muslim lands trigger violence, you point fingers at the religion of Islam. You say that they will only be "content when all people of the world either adopt Islam... or die."
What do you know about the Islamic religion, Steven? I can't recall any of these people saying "convert to Islam." By painting them as mere religious fanatics, you're completely ignoring what they're fighting for: Freedom. They don't have a state, Steven. No one is just going to randomly become a religious extremist and then tell the whole world to convert.
If we catch Osama bin Laden, nothing will change in the Middle-East. If anything, the Muslim world would become more radicalized. Oh and you forgot one another thing: Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran are not the same as Al-Qaeda. Hamas and Hezbollah even CONDEMNED the 9/11 attacks. Look it up. -
J commented on the article |
Sorry, my post should read: I'm NOT saying you're lying*
-
J commented on the article |
I'm saying you're lying, I just want to know what they said exactly.
-
J commented on the article |
David,
What is your source? Do you have quotes from the Arab individuals who say that Israel doesn't have a right to exist? -
J commented on the article |
David,
Please stop generalizing and over-simplifying everything! You keep shouting "Islamic extreme groups," and "oh they want to kill everyone in the name of Allah." Please stop with this, it's not only a misrepresentation of what is happening, but it's also potentially Islamophobic.
There are a lot of extremist people who practice their religion. They live in the West and in the East. There are extremist Muslims in the United States, but do they want to kill people? No! They are extremist in the sense that they forbid music and don't do things like put pictures up on the wall. It's like the Orthodox Jews who are very strict about what is Kosher and what is not, or who won't touch the opposite sex before marriage. It's like the extremist Evangelical Christians who won't allow their children to read Harry Potter books or dress up for Halloween.
You need to move away from this whole notion of Islamic extremism. No one is look at a book and saying "oh hey, I should kill Jews." No, that is why I gave you a quick history lesson so you could see that Islam, Judaism, and Christianity enjoined centuries of coexistence. Please read those books, they are very important for you to read, especially if you think this is about Islamic extremist groups.
Religion is used as symbolism -- it is added to a very turbulent and political situation, such as the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. There is NO MISSION "from Allah." You don't see the entire Muslim world mobilizing to destroy Israel or all Jews. I mentioned that over 25,000 Jews live in Iran right now. I mentioned to you that Iranian Jews marched in the street to PROTEST ISRAEL. What part of that didn't you understand?
The reason why the Muslim world is antagonistic towards Israel is because of the military occupation. Because of the violence that is going on right now. Because of the human rights issues. Because of the war crimes. Because of the prisoner abuse. Because of the blockade on Gaza where 1.5 million people can't get healthy food, clean water, medicine, or electricity.
If someone keeps punching you, David, and you have their foot on their mouth, what are you going to do? If someone says "stop stomping on me!" are you going to let them go or keep stomping on their face? The more you do that, the more people will keep punching at you. The violence goes back and forth. You don't seem to acknowledge that Israel has committed crimes too. Hamas has killed innocent people, and as I mentioned before, that VIOLATES the Islamic laws of fighting.
If you want to discuss the issue, take religion OUT. This has NOTHING to do with Islam and Judaism. Islam and Judaism are probably the most common religions in the world, not just spiritually, but culturally as well. There millions of Palestinian refugees, David. Why? Don't you think that causes violent reactions? If you steal someone's home, do you really expect the other person to just forget about that?
It is wrong for certain groups to say that Israel should be destroyed. That is not the solution. The solution is PEACE. And you need to AFFIRM LIFE, David. You don't need to take life. People need to talk. Don't say Hamas needs to be destroyed first and then we can sit down and talk. No, what is going to happen to those Palestinians? How do you think they're going to react? Over 900 people are dead now. The death toll is climbing every day. You think they''ll want to sit down after this?? Use your common sense. Put yourselves in THEIR shoes and ask yourself that question.
Oh and I thought Israel was a democracy, but apparently, they've banned Arab parties from running the Israel election. Did you see this article: "Israel bans Arab parties from running in upcoming elections"?
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054867.html
Doesn't sound like democracy to me. Sounds like discrimination. -
J commented on the article |
@ Steven,
I am wondering if you missed my point about Chrisitan Crusaders killing Arab Christians in Muslim lands because in your most recent post, you mention the war was between two religions. The war was about POWER. There were plenty of Arab Christians in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Spain, and other parts of the Muslim world. At the University level in the United States, we learn that "Islam spread by the sword" is a myth and an oversimplification. As my professor put it, "if you were taught about Islam 50 years ago, that would have been the mainstream discource." My professor is a devout Christian American man who used to live in Saudi Arabia. He has also visited Baghdad and other Muslim countries.
My other sources are "Crusades: A Reader (Readings in Medieval Civilizations and Cultures)" by S.J. Allen and Emilie Amt. And also "The Crusades Through Arab Eyes” by Amin Malouf.
History, as I said before, is very complex, multi-layered, and rich with detail. It's not as simple as saying "oh it was Christian versus Muslim." I'm surprised you have not heard of Maimonides -- there are hospitals in New York named after him and he was one of civilization's greatest thinkers and philosophers. I mentioned an account from one of his writings, but that didn't seem to make you reconsider your take on history.
And yes, the Orthodox Christians in Constantinople asked for aid from the Pope, but the original plan was not to march onward to Jerusalem. That was something added on later by the Pope. Keep in mind that the Pope wanted to speak for all Christians, so capturing Constantinople would mean he would speak for a larger portion of Christendom. The Pope and other religious clerics exaggerated the violence Muslims committed to Christians, when in actuality, the Christian Arabs were living in peace with the Muslims. Read Michael H. Morgan's book to read the actual accounts.
Despite me saying all of this, you still say: "the three religions were enemies towards one another until recent eras"
Why are you perpetuating the same stereotypes and misconceptions that are making our society more and more ignorant? Who invited the Jews back into the city of Jerusalem? The Muslims (TWICE), who gave the Jews refuge when they were exiled by the Spanish Inquisition? The Muslims. Who allowed Jews to practice their religion and govern their own communities? The Muslims. Those Greek texts that the West often cherishes -- Socrates, Plato, Ptolemy, Aristotle -- who translated them? The Christian Arabs did. Who preserved these texts? The Muslims.
How could the Muslims accept Greek philosophy as permissible reading if they regarded anyone outside of Islam as the "enemy"? The Greek philosophers pre-date Islam and Christianity. If Muslims or Christians or Jews were so hostile towards one another due to a simple difference in religion, then they would have burned these Greek texts since they were neither Christian, Jewish, or Islamic.
I don't rely on Jon Stewart for news, but I do NOT deny that he makes important points that deserve to receive attention. Just because a person is an entertainer doesn't mean he/she is pigeon-holed into one identity. It doesn't mean their influence isn't big. Statistics show that most adolescents and college students watch Jon Stewart for the news. Don't worry though, I have other sources of news as well, but they aren't in the mainstream. All I was doing was applauding Jon Stewart for giving an alternative perspective in the mainstream media. -
J commented on the article |
Additional note on the Crusades, Steven: Look up what happened in the Fourth Crusade when the Christians of Western Europe sacked the Greek Christian Orthodox city of Constantinople. Many Greek historians still regard that as the greatest atrocity ever committed in the history of humanity.
People slaughtered, children's bodies mutilated, nuns being raped, art being destroyed -- it was Christians fighting Christians. Not a single Muslim soldier was killed in the Fourth Crusade because the Crusaders never even made it to Jerusalem. -
J commented on the article |
@ Steven,
You said: "JD, you also say that there is a 'history of peace' between the religions of Jew, Christian and Islam, but that couldn't be farther than the truth, the time upon Charlemenge's rise to power he fought and won against Islamic Jihadist. then there was the Crusades, both are historic clashes between Christianity and Islam, and don't even get me started on the 20th century."
Your history is way off. Tell me what your sources are. I suggest you read, "Peace Be Upon You: Fourteen Centuries of Muslim, Christian, Jewish Conflict and Cooperation" by Zachary Karabell. I also recommend, "Lost History: The Enduring Legacy of Muslim Scientists, Thinkers, and Artists," by Michael H. Morgan (who I had the honor to meet recently).
History is a passion of mine. It would be foolish to say that violence between Muslims, Christians, and Jews was non-existent, but for the most part, the three coexisted peacefully. History is very complex, so please don't try to simplify it. Even mentioning the Crusades is problematic since it wasn't ALL CHRISTIANS who waged war on Muslims. There were Christians living in Muslim lands, including Jerusalem, when the Crusaders invaded the city. Crusaders killed Arab Christians when they captured Jerusalem in the First Crusade. The Christians of Constantinople (the Greek Orthodox Christians) hated the Christians of Western Europe. In fact, the Greek Orthodox Christians were very hesitant about getting involved in the Crusades. They felt more comfortable studying in the great Islamic learning cities such as Cairo and Baghdad. The Italians didn't want to take any sides, they traded with both Muslims and Christians.
If you think you know your history so well, then please tell me who Musa ibn Maymoun (Maimonides) was? Tell me who Hasdai ibn Shaprut was. Tell me who Samuel ibn Naghrela was. These three men were Jews and they lived in Islamic ruled countries. Maimonides was not only the leader of Cairo's Jewish community under the Fatimid Shia dynasty, but he later became one of Salah Al-Din's physicians. Hasdai ibn Shaprut held honorable positions in Islamic government, while Samuel ibn Naghrela was a Jewish general who COMMANDED Muslim armies in Islamic-ruled Spain.
Let me relate a story of Maimonides for you: When his fellow Jews asked him about the Muslims, he said unto them: the Muslims are not idol worshippers. He said that Muslims believe in One God and that their concept of God is the same as the Jews. He also said that if there was no other place for Jews to worship, it would be permissible for Jews to pray in a Mosque with the Muslims.
Maimonides was allowed to criticize Muhammad (peace be upon him) -- it's throughout his work. Was he killed for it? No. Was he persecuted for it? No. Was he censored for it? No. Islamic civilization was at the height of the world for a reason: It allowed free thought and expression (very contrary to the Muslim world today). We have written accounts in Egypt, Spain, Syria, Yemen, Baghdad, and many other Muslim lands where Jews and Christians were allowed to debate Muslims in front of Caliphs. We have written accounts from eye-witnesses who testify that Christians and Jews were allowed to keep their religions and practice freely in their places of worship.
Who was Salah Al-Din, David? When the Crusaders took Jerusalem, they SLAUGHTERED, BURNED, and RAPED thousands of Muslims and Jews. They exiled the Jews from the city. When Salah Al-Din recaptured the city in 1187, he did not kill a single Christian civilian. He didn't burn down a Church or a Synagogue. Instead he INVITED the Jews back into the city. As Edward Said, a Palestinian-American author and professor who was raised in a Christian family, once said in an interview: "Islam has been the most tolerant of the Abrahamic religions, historically." That was the way of Islamic civilization back then: You would accept others for who they are. This is not just indicative with their treatment towards Christians and Jews, but also to non-Arabs like Persians, Turks, and Kurds (Salah Al-Din himself was Kurdish).
You mentioned Charlemagne, but didn't say anything about his diplomatic relations with Haroun Al-Rashid. Haroun Al-Rashid even sent gifts to Charlemagne. The Muslim world is not homogenous, Steven. Just because Charlemagne fought with the Muslims in Spain didn't mean his relations with other Muslims in different Islamic dynasties would be non-existent. I am not denying that there were occurences of violence towards non-Muslim minorities, their certainly were, but those violent acts were not commited by the ENTIRE ISLAMIC EMPIRE. They were commited by certain dynasties and extremist factions. The Ummayad dynasty wasn't the same as the Abbasid, and the Abbasid dynasty wasn't the ssame was the Ayyubid, and the Ayyubid dynasty wasn't the same was the Safavids, etc. But those factions such as the Almohads discriminated against Jews because of their extremist ideology. They also discriminated against Shias and anyone else who didn't accept their interpretation of religion.
History is complicted and rich with details, Steven. Please read the books I suggested if you're interested in learning more.
Peace. -
J commented on the article |
David,
Your one-sidedness does not help. Rather than seeing Jon Stewart's point, you dismiss him just because's a comedian. I didn't know comedians couldn't address important issues in their work.
You never answered my questions. You didn't respond to much of what I said. You blame the entire situation exclusively on Hamas. You think Israel did nothing wrong.
Try to see things from the Palestinian perspective for once. And don't base your perception of them from television images. Try picking up a book and read about their side of the story. They have names too. They didn't just start with the PLO. Why was it that the majority of Israel (before 1948) consisted of Palestinians? Why do you think the Palestinian settlements are called "settlements." Why are there Palestinian refugee camps?
If you are not bold enough to question and engage in a thoughtful dialogue, then there is only so much I can do, David. If you want to be one-sided, that's your choice, but one thing is for sure: It doesn't help.
Impact
0 Actions
0 Recruits
