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Stop Now
A believer in REAL not naive change. Too often change is thought of in idealistic terms, not tangible world realities. Strong believer in personal responsiblity above all else.
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Stop commented on the article |Well I must have missed a lot in the early morning hours here on change.org!
As always reading the posts of Fred and Carman I get a good feel for what went on. Shannon thank you for all you do to keep the convo flowing and the rest far away.
FRED -
"This is why a dicussion on what to do with homeless becomes so divisive. No one denies it is an individual responsibility and that the private public should be in the forefront."
Bravo Fred - That is probably the most truthful statement on this entire line. The fact is, everyone is on this particular blog line because they DO care and accusations of lack of compassion is built upon the flimsiest knee-jerk emotionalities. It is not a question of compassion at all when you look at individual situations such as the library's purpose.
Everyone has posted some great thoughts and amazing ideas. I will be honest with you, Orlando as I mentioned earlier - save for the individual groups that strive unendlessly to help those who are homeless - is NOT very friendly to this population. A number of years ago our former Mayor even stated "there are no homeless in Orlando" - jeez.
Unfortunately what that has caused is the very disruption we are here talking about. Shannon is correct in that this problem at the library - which is a large problem and do not dismiss it with cries of "compassion" - is caused by a larger citywide (county wide - go even further) problem.
Carman - can you if you feel comfortable doing so, either send me by private mail on this site, or post publicly right here for all to benefit from, an internet link to the programs you were discussing? I am not familiar with them, and whether they can help down here or not, it would be a great thing to discover how they worked what they are doing. -
Stop commented on the article |
Bravo again Carman.
Those are actually out of the box concepts that I doubt Orlando is capable of. Sadly, while we have some AMAZING institutions that I have mentioned time and time again such as the Coalition/ The Church in the Sun, Salvation Army, etc etc, the administration itself has done little to assist. It would take that kind of political support to take over an abandoned school/hotel/etc.
Many churches do help with food and support thankfully.
Again - Bravo for thinking that is outside of the norm on helping the homeless - finding additional destinations for them to "hang their hats" if only temporarily.
Any help counts.
I look forward to communicating with some of the organizations I mentioned on all of that. -
Stop commented on the article |
CARMAN SAID -
"My only solution is that instead of kicking them out we come up with alternatives for the homeless. What has to happen is that more people see the homeless as somethign other than a bother and to help on a personal level instead of ignoring it."
Carman - I must say I wish I had addressed this above. This IS exactly the question at hand. You are not judging as Johnny does, diverting, or ignoring the situation. I truly admire your posts because while it may seem that we are coming at the situation from opposite sides, we are in fact not. We both know this is a situation that should not be occurring - but - what then?
I think it was you that posted the shower/locker question above, and I am sending an email to some of the places I donate to to ask what that status is in the services they offer, and if they do not have enough accomodations for this - what is a possible solution? I would also love to add to that in having a place for them to not just rest their heads at night, but a place to congregate in the day not to hide them, but to give them a destination place where they can feel safe and secure.
Bravo for recognizing the issue, while demanding a tangible solution. I don't need to compliment you privately - I am doing it quite publicly. -
Stop commented on the article |
Sherri -
"Stop Now, it does not surprise me that you are a fan of the media which is actually being controlled by the mafia which is in turn controlling Americans which is in turn leaving targeted individuals out in the cold which in turn leads to homelessness."
Sherri - not to engage you again in the conspiracy theories that you post here - I respect your right to post them, though as you know severely disagree with you.
The only issue I have with your posting is - where did I say anything about being a "fan of the media" . In fact, I do not like the general media at all, and did not in any way even mention them. Go look at some of my other blogs where my main problem IS the media. Not sure what you were reading into there, but it is not there at all. I respectfull let you now that you are incorrect by attributing that to me, and nothing else is said - we have already had a run in on these conspiracy theories, and I respectfully wish for no more. I do not choose to engage you with them. Thank you.
AS TO JOHNNY MASTERS -
I work with homeless shelters Johnny. This is not a question of helping the homeless - the entire blog is SHOULD HOMELESS INDIVIDUALS BE ALLOWED TO SLEEP/EAT/BATHE/PANHANDLE in a LIBRARY.
That is the ONLY question posed in the original article in the Orlando Sentinel, and the reason that Shannon brought it here. So any other discussion is diversion from the question.
So nothing is being diverted by anyone here who says:
1) We must help the homeless
2) It is a disgrace that there are not enough places for them, especially during the day
3) Homelessness is a huge problem
4) That STILL does not make it right for anyone - a multimillionaire even - to sleep/eat/bathe/ask for money in a LIBRARY.
If someone working for a brokerage firm were in a three piece suit sitting in the library for the sole purpse of sleeping, or taking off his clothes to bathe in the bathroom, you can rest assured they would be either asked to leave or arrested.
I have never said "Stinky houseless people" JOhnny. Stop trying to attack anyone who disagrees and attribute things to them they have never even implied. Believing that a library is not a place to sleep or bathe does not make someone lack compassion. In fact, in what I do I would love to compare time and donations to the homeless with you - let us see who actually gives more. Those of us trying to help, or those of you complaining about it and pointing fingers at others.
As to Carman. A child walking into the bathroom with a parent to discover a half naked person bathing is still something that should not occur. Unless you think that is appropriate in a public place? You know very well Carman that if that same three piece suited multimillionaire was stripping down in a bathroom, and a young mother and child walked in he would be arrested on the spot. But when a homeless individual does it we must understand.
So, while people would rather point fingers of horror at those of us saying "a library is not a place for this" they continually divert (and actually fully ignore anything else being said by those same individuals) to the topic of "BUT WE MUST HELP THEM and if you don't you LACK COMPASSION" -
So your solution then it seems, based on the question of this blog, is to let them just live in the library? What a great solution. So then again I ask you - where should we then put the services of a library?
So I will entertain this by asking you a direct question Johnny, answerable ONLY by a yes or a no.
"Is it part of a Library's purpose/mission/services to have people (regardless of their home status) sleep there/eat there/Bathe there/Ask for money there/store belongings there."
Again. Only answer this question yes or no. That is the only question at hand.
Then, after answering that, we can discuss elsewhere on this wonderful blog, solutions to helping the homeless. -
Stop commented on the article |
Carman -
The real issue is indeed the homeless problem, and that is why some of the suggestions above were fruitful. However, your idea that people are offended by seeing them is not directly on the money in this particular situation.
It is not just seeing, but being approached every five steps by them in this area of Downtown Orlando. And unfortunately there is a good mix down there of genuine homeless, and those who are taking advantage of the situation.
Seeing a homeless person is not a bad thing, it is a thoughtful thing to me since I see them often. Having them come up to young mothers just trying to bring their kids to the library is another issue. Having a child go into the bathroom at the library only to find a half dressed man bathing is also another issue. That is what we are discussing here.
So, where do we stand since we keep drifting completely off subject?
1) We all agree there is a homeless issue
2) We all agree that othe facilities need to be provided, and some have made some great suggestions above.
3) We all agree that a Library is not for sleeping or bathing (at least I hope we all do)
4) So. Back to the original premise. If a homeless person goes into the library to use the library for the purpose it was established, more power to them. But the issue here is those individuals using the library for purposes it was never intended, and how to solve that problem.
Oh and Carman, yes, I figured that you lived in a cold state from your posting, I was simply referencing the original article that referred back to Mr. Ballentine's blog which is occuring in Orlando Florida. That is how I came to change.org in the first place, from posting on that blog and seeing someone mention this site.
So, as someone who does help the homeless, I ask you to please not switch the argument to a general "we must care for the homeless" argument. That is avoiding the question of - should people (notice I did not even say homeless) be allowed to sleep in and outside of/ask for money from the patrons of/store their belongings in/bathe in the bathrooms of - A. Library and not use it for the purpose it was intended.
And if that is what should happen there, then please suggest where instead we should keep books and research materials? -
Stop commented on the article |
Bravo Kristina - and I agree, there is an interpretation and a path to follow there! Thank you for keeping us abreast of factual information available.
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Stop commented on the article |
Jennifer -
There is nothing elitist about it - "but these are inadequate. At any rate, libraries shouldn't be an elitest institution accessible only by landed (homed) gentry."
If the homeless want to use the library for the purposes you mentioned, for enriching, searching for employment, etc - MORE POWER TO THEM and I and others have stated that all along.
As someone who lives in Orlando, worked with the homeless, and has gone to this library, let me once again state what they do there (notice none of it will be reading, enriching their minds, or using the library to look for employment)
1) They sleep out side the front doors. We have multiple places they can go such as the Coalition or the Salvation Army.
2) Upon waking they ask everyone who comes by for money.
3) They hang out inside and outside the library all day asking for money.
4) They go into the library, pile their belongings somewhere, and fall asleep.
5) They go into the bathrooms and take sponge baths and leave the place very inhospitable so to speak.
I am sorry, but none of that was any of the things you mentioned. And none of those things are what a library is for.
Now. As to the weather. It was close to 80 here today, and right now it is about 76 degrees outside. So anyone stating "they need to get out of the weather so they don't "freeze to death" as Carman stated is quite off the mark (as far as this particular story is about).One thing you did say though was the idea about safe shower and locker facilities. I think that is a fabulous idea! While the Coalition and the Salvation army do provide many services, I do believe that a place dedicated to that would be a huge boon to the homeless in this area! Not only that, but in agreement with Carman - perhaps it can provide a place for them to be.So while I disagree with your take on the entire "library" situation, you have certainly posed some great solutions that can alter things. Bravo on that! -
Stop commented on the article |
I don't know if that was necessarily a "secret" Kristina. Since most headlines on the news down here are saying "Travoltas return to Florida with Son's Ashes." Not that much of a secret. When John Lennon died Yoko Ono also had him "secretly" cremated. Again. Not much of a secret.
It is a shame, is it not, that the real issues of this death - Jett, his life, his family, what his disease may or may not have been, and how it could or not have been helped are all clouded under gossip and pure pure pure pure pure conjecture?
Again. The problem of an immediate news media that posts headlines way before it posts facts. -
Stop commented on the article |
Once again many are confusing the need to help the homeless which is undeniable, with the purpose of a library. The simple point is - a library is NOT meant for sleeping and bathing. If there is someone who wishes to dispute that I ask you to please show support for the libary having as its mission to allow its members and/or guests to bathe and sleep (and saying that a library is so boring of course you fall asleep is not the sort of commentary I mean)
From Carman -
"I have known some people who used the library to wash and to sleep, then they wandered the streets at night. They used the library becasue it was warm and they could sleep without fear of being hurt."
TO CARMAN - How nice. But is that what a library is used for? Sleeping and washing? Why not simply do that in a restaurant then? Perhaps just walk into the hospital, take a shower, and sleep? A library serves varied purposes - but a homeless shelter it is not. Plain and simple. That is the only point at discussion here.
And from Miranda.
"Perhaps they're going to the library to use the computer and try to find a JOB. You can't put them down for that. "
TO MIRANDA - Yes you are correct. Except the point of the original article was the fact that this is decidedly NOT what they are doing in this particular library. In this library, the sleep outside the front doors, ask for money from those entering, go inside for storage for their belongings, hang out all day - not to read or research but to simply hang out - and bathe in the bathroom.
If a homeless person in Orlando chooses to use the library for its purpose - then anyone who tried to stop them would be completely wrong.
That is not the case I am afraid.
Please stop deflecting the issue into the idea of "we have to help the homeless" - We know that. That is why we are all on this blog.
The issue here is simply "Is a working library the place to house them." -
Stop commented on the article |
"Actually, Heath Ledger died of a deliberate overdose of six different drugs, including opiate derivatives. (I am a journalist and cannot reveal my sources.)"
Sister Wolf, that is the equivalent of me saying "I am a journalist (guess what, I really am - but only part time, about one article a week on spec) and Heath Ledger died from an alien giving him bizarre scientific tests - I know for sure, but I cannot reveal my sources, but believe me" - no support or credibility whatsoever other than "Trust me, I am telling you, but I can't tell you how I know"
"We didn't hear much about Ella Travolta because there was no controversy concerning any diagnosis or treatment pertaining to her."
Sister Wolf - You have totally proven my point then. Why not parade Ella in front of the press then? She is an adorable child! Why not? Because - as I have said all along - they are private. Their privacy has nothing to do with shame for their son or hiding him away as so many are claiming. They are private even with a daughter who has nothing (apparently) to hide.
"The loss of a child is heartbreaking beyond words."
Sister Wolf - you and I agree totally and completely. After hearing from the emergency techs about how Travolta and Preston were grieving and desperately trying to get Jett to hang on, it is breathtakingly tragic. None of us can fully understand what is happening in their hearts and minds and spirits.
"And I'm sticking to my story."
Sister Wolf - Of course you are. That was expected.
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